October 12, 2009 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #590559JotharMember
I was assistant Gabbai for a Simchas Torah “everyone gets an aliyah” laining. After the first round, there were no more Kohanim who were over Bar Mitzvah. The Cohen insisted that his son, should go before a Yisroel who was a gadol. I said, But he’s not worthy of avodah!” and ignored him. Afterward I did some iyun into the sugya to see if I was right.
There is actually a machlokes about this for Shabbos. (Siman 283 or 282). The Radvaz says a katan Cohen, if there’s no other cohen, gets an aliyah before a yisroel who’s a gadol. The Mogen Avraham says “no”, as he’s not fitting to do avodah. The Mishna Brurah doesn’t pasken, but usually in such a case we go like the mogen Avraham. However, the Aruch Hashulchan paskens like the Radvaz, and says that even a cohen who is a baal mum gets rishon, even though he can’t do the avodah. However, he says, this does not apply to a weekday, yom tov or Yom Kippur.This means that according to the Aruch Hashulchan, on a shabbos, a cohen who’s a katan goes before a yisroel who’s a gadol.
However, the minhag is that we no longer call up ketanim for anything other than maftir. On Simchas Torah, however, we give ketanim aliyos. The Rema (669) says that we can even give Chassan Torah to a katan. The question is, is this an abrogation of the custom of not giving ketanim aliyos, or is this because Chassan Torah is after the 5 kreuim, so it is not a violation of the minhag?
I thought that it’s possible that the minhag doesn’t apply on Simchas Torah, so my friend, at least according to the Aruch Hashulchan, by the second round, or the first round in Eretz Yisroel where it would be shabbos.
Interestingly, one of the meforshim htere said that the Rema is going “midin”, but today we don’t call up ketanim for chassan Torah. So based on that, we don’t necessarily give ketanim aliyos. however, the minhag in most places is that we do, which seems to argue on that peirush.
I spoke to my Rav, who said that the reason a katan can get chassan Torah is because we already called up the 5 kreuim for yom tov, and Chassan Torah is like maftir. Furthermore, after the first round of 5 aliyos in the “everyone gets an aliyah lainings”, every additional aliyah is considered like “maftir”, and there is no order. You can call a yisroel for the second rishon, and a kohen for the second sheini. So a katan has no kedimah anyway.
1. It is not a day where the minhag no longer applies. Even in Eretz Yisroel, where simchas torah is on Shabbos, a kohen who is a katan can NOT get the first aliyah, as we aren’t noheig like the Aruch Hashulchan.
2. The second time around ,when every aliyah is like a maftir, a kohen and a yisroel are the same. So the katan definitely doesn’t have kedimah.
3. It’s also possible that other poskim go like the Mogen Avraham anyway instead of the Radvaz, and argue on the Aruch Hashulchan. However, this kohen was a big Aruch Hashulchan fan, so I was trying to work within his viewpoint.October 12, 2009 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #661840Feif UnParticipant
Joseph, do they do that in your shul?October 12, 2009 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #661841
Feif: No, but I’ve heard of it. (BTW I was kidding with Jothar.)October 12, 2009 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #661842havesomeseichelMember
What about the middos of that father? What kind of lesson is he teaching his son? That he is automatically better than others and should push for his rights? Yes, he might be getting the first aliya and there are special halachos for regarding kohanim. But if the kohanim are arrogant and without proper middos then it kind of defeats the point. They are supposed to be an example for the rest of us….October 12, 2009 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #661843haifagirlParticipant
I davened in a shul where they tied up the shaliach tzibbur on Simchas Torah. And on Shemini Atzeres they poured water on him during tefillas geshem. Needless to say, I stopped davening there.October 12, 2009 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #661844JotharMember
If a kohen halachically deserves it then it is wrong to deprive him of it.
The kohen was being polite, actually. I was a bit more dismissive of it than I should have been, especially with his son listening. I called up and apologized before sharing the sugya with him. He’s a lamdan and has a tshukah for halacha, so he was appreciative.October 13, 2009 12:57 am at 12:57 am #661845rabbiofberlinParticipant
to haifagirl: I have difficulty believing that they poured water on the shliach tsibbur during the tefilla of geshem. if you are lving in “chutz la-aretz” it is doubly difficult to accept this. tefillas gesehm is said with the niggun of “ne’ilah” and wearing the kittel- i just cannot beleive that anyone would dare yo do what yo ujust said. if this is eretz ysroel- (where eveything is done on one day)i still have difficutly belivieng THAT. as far as tiying up on simchat torah- yes , it has been done and clearly it is wrong.October 13, 2009 1:28 am at 1:28 am #661846sunflowerMember
haifag= sounds like a bad purim joke. its a fib no?October 13, 2009 5:08 am at 5:08 am #661847
Joseph; don’t they tie up the bal mussuf in your shul & then throw him in the garbage can!?October 13, 2009 5:23 am at 5:23 am #661848
Jax: No, that I honor I am reserving for you! I will personally give you that kibud…October 13, 2009 5:40 am at 5:40 am #661849jphoneMember
I was in a shteeble where the chazzan was tied to a plank of wood, with the intent of takih him down to and setting him afloat in the mikvah. Lucky for the shaliach tzibbur the Rebbe threatened to ban those who continued the stunt from the shteeble.
EDITEDOctober 13, 2009 5:50 am at 5:50 am #661850
Joseph: i’m truly honored!October 13, 2009 6:57 am at 6:57 am #661851
Jax: You will first need to upgrade from a black hat to a shtreimel.October 13, 2009 7:04 am at 7:04 am #661852
Joseph: i’ve always wanted a shtreimel! so no issue with that one!October 13, 2009 9:59 am at 9:59 am #661853haifagirlParticipant
Sorry to report that the water incident was true. It took place in chutz la’aretz. It was at a shul I davened at only when I was desparate and could not daven elsewhere.October 13, 2009 11:20 am at 11:20 am #661854onlyemesMember
The minhag in Eretz Yisrael is that after the first round, the rules loosen up quite a bit.It is still preferable to call a cohen first, but then a levi should be second, etc… In a case where for example there are two cohanim left and no one else, the second cohen is called up like this:” ya’amod ploni ben ploni af al pi shehu cohen”.
As far as tying up the chazzan and other shenanigans, this utterly despicable “minhag” exists only in chutz la’aretz. It’s shocking that frum Jews would even consider this behavior.October 13, 2009 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #661855jphoneMember
This despicable behavior is directly related to the amount of alcohol consumed by the members of the shul.
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