May 30, 2023 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #2194138
This expression gets thrown around a lot. But are there any official parameters? I would say the list includes but is not limited to the entirety of:
Gemara Bavli and Yerushalmi
MidrashMay 30, 2023 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #2194198yungermanSParticipant
Why did you leave out the entire shulchan aruch and Rambam?
Explaining all the mitzvos in the Torah from all angles. With all the meforshim also written beside the author.May 30, 2023 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #2194206
what happened with athe notion that a Talmid Chacham allowed to change the words to deny that he learnt a masechet?! Should claim “hetzi” not “kula”May 30, 2023 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #2194211maskildoreshParticipant
Rav Chaim Kanievsky zatzal write up an entire list of what he considered Kol Hatorah Kula for an individual who wanted to make a specific Yossochor/Zevulan partnership covering it all. It was quite an extensive list.
Rabbi Eisen from Shas Yidden has the list, (and has faced facilitated a number of such partnerships. )May 31, 2023 9:45 am at 9:45 am #2194253commonsaychelParticipant
Benjamin Franklin also had a list of yossochar/ zevulan partnership, its 6.14 x 2.61 inches of paper with his picture on it.May 31, 2023 9:52 am at 9:52 am #2194321
Why did you leave out the entire shulchan aruch and Rambam?
Because that’s the next layer. The first layer is primary sources and canonical material. But before the S”A I would list Teshuvos HaGeonim.May 31, 2023 9:54 am at 9:54 am #2194223
Nach should be taken out. It’s not Torah. Also agada.(we should still learn it, don’t get me wrong!!)
“Vehayu hadvarim ha’ele asher anochi METZAVCHA hayom….”
The Mitzvos. That’s Limud haTorah.
Torah means Halacha and the way we come to the Halacha.
So, besides Chumash, we have Mechilta Sifra Sifrie, Mishna, Tosefta, Bavli Yerushalmi, HaRambam (and potentially, any discussion about Halacha, I only mentioned Rambam because he covers “kol haTorah Kulah”)May 31, 2023 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2194341Reb EliezerParticipant
The Raavad sometimes uses a harsh language on the Rambam to discourage relying completely on the Rambam.May 31, 2023 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2194362
Taking out Nach is equivalent to reading the Bible in English and thinking yourself an expert on Mikrah.May 31, 2023 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2194365
One who skips the aggados has no concept of where the halachah starts and ends.
He will be an am haoretz who claims to have finished shas.May 31, 2023 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2194369
The entirety of Midrash can mean many different things.
All the versions of the Tanchuma and Pesikta?
Bahir, Kanah, and Heicholos?
Mesechtos Katanos?May 31, 2023 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2194368
The entirety of Midrash can mean many different things.
All the versions of the Tanchuma and Pesikta?
Bahir, Kanah, and Heicholos?
Mesechtos Katanos?May 31, 2023 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2194372
SA is next level. It has it’s own orbit starting with many rishonim to the Tur and Beis Yosef.
But Rashi and Rambam must be included. You can’t have a completion of any of the list without both of them.May 31, 2023 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #2194508SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
125 st said:
“Nach should be taken out. It’s not Torah.”
What “125 st” said above is one of the most ignorant statements that I saw in my entire life.
For your information, any Jew who says that ONE WORD of Nach is NOT from HASHEM, that person is an Apikuris Gamur, and he or she is guaranteed to be eternally-banned from Gan Eden, no matter how many good deeds he or she did in his lifetime.
If Sefer Mishlei is not Torah, then why did: Rashi, Vilna Gaon, Malbim, Metsudath David, Ibn Ezra, Ralbag, Rabbeinu Yonah all write commentaries [peirushim] on Sefer Mishlei?
Everything that I just said about Sefer Mishlei is true for all of Nach.
Midrash Tanchuma, Parshat Re-eh, chapter 1:
“The wicked rebels of the Jewish People do not believe in the Neviim (Prophets) or the Cetubim (Divinely Inspired Writings).”
Midrash Rabah, Seder Tisa, Parshah 41, Paragraph 5:
Rabbi Levi taught in the name of Rabbi Shimon ben Lakish:
Just as a bride wears 24 different decorations,
a Torah Scholar must be diligent in all 24 books of Tanach.
Midrash Rabah, Seder Bamidbar, Parshah 2, Paragraph 10:
Through the study of Torah, Neviim and Cetubim,
the Holy One Blessed Be He atones for him…
Midrash Rabah, Kohelet, chapter 1, paragraph 34:
The Neviim and Cetubim [Nach] were given
so we should labor in them, and do mitzvot
and good deeds and receive reward.
Rashi commentary on Exodus/Shemot,
Parsha Tisa, chapter 31, verse 18:
…A Torah scholar needs to be expert
in 24 books [of Tanach, which has 24 books].May 31, 2023 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #2194523
Being Torah and from Hashem are not the same in this instance.May 31, 2023 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #2194538
“Nach should be taken out. It’s not Torah. ”
What?!! Torah plus Nach is the basis of the ENTIRE Torah? Who taught you such a thing.
No Mesorah: I should’ve included Masechtos Ketanos. When I said Midrash I meant anythingof Tannaitic source (for first level stuff).
And Rambam is second layer just like SA because it is a compilation of Halachos already found in the Shas.May 31, 2023 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #2194562DaMosheParticipant
This may be a relevant question, as there is a special brachah to make when seeing someone who is considered a big talmud chacham – which some translate as knowing kol haTorah. Here are some who gedolim have said the brachah could be recited for (not all are living):
R’ Meir Simcha from Dvinsk
R’ Dovid Karliner
R’ Ahron Kotler
R’ Chaim Kanievsky
I believe I remember reading that a major Rav had said it could be recited for R’ Shteinman as well, but I can’t seem to find that source now. For those listed above, I have sources for them.
Nowadays, it’s very difficult to find someone who the brachah can be recited for. I happen to have a relative who it may be possible for, but I’ve never asked. He sits and learns all day, actually keeping the same seder as R’ CHaim Kanievsky zt”l did, finishing up kol haTorah each year. But he doesn’t want it publicized, because he doesn’t want to be disturbed from his learning by people coming to ask for brachos.May 31, 2023 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #2194566
The problem is that the majority of midrash is post tannaic. And around half of it is more recent than the talmud. Also, there are several extinct midrashim that survive in later sources.May 31, 2023 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #2194567
The Ramabam includes a lot from Yerushalmi and other sources. It is more comprehensive than either Talmud. My point is that if one cannot achieve a comprehensive outlook on Mishna without both Rashi and Rambam.May 31, 2023 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #2194568
We did not say the Bracha on Rav Chaim Kanievskuy because of his daily chiyuvim.
I’m not going to be enticed into mentioning living people. But there are plenty.
Rav Ovadia Yosef Rav Moshe Feinstein and the Chazon Ish are glaring omissions. Rav Chaim Ozer as well. That covers a century of answering the world’s heaviest questions.May 31, 2023 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #2194571
what about Rav Ovadia?May 31, 2023 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #2194589GadolhadorahParticipant
Does someone “keep score” as to which rabbonim have completed the 24 (or whatever one believes the number is) of seforim that constitute “Kol Hatorah Kulah”? Would a big talmid chacham who for whatever reason had only completed 22 or 23 of those seforim not be worthy of reciting the baracha referenced by DaMoshe. One might think the decision would be based on a wholistic assessment of the lamdus and other attributes of a particular Rav versus some numerical score of how many seforim had been mastered.May 31, 2023 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2194614
It’s not a linear scale.. There are multiple factors.May 31, 2023 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #2194613
As n0mesorah mentioned, there is a difference between “from Hashem” and “Torah = LAW”
The Torah, the LAW – and, of course, the discussion of how to get to the law, is Yahadus.
I would say, that even reading the story of the Mabul or Yosef and his brothers doesn’t qualify as “Limud haTora”, which is a very specific classification. (as i quoted above…., vshinantam lvanecha vdibarta bam….. “ki im bToras H’ cheftzo uvToraso yeegeh yomam vlalyla” and “vhagisa bo yomam vlayla”)
“Ki al pi hasvarim ha’eleh karati itcha bris v’es Yisrael”, and many other psukim say beferush this concept. The entire Bris is the Torah, nothing else. Furthermore, the other Nevi’im have no right to give us any laws, = meaning they are not Torah AT ALL!
Only that Moshe said there would be a place Hashem would choose to rest His Name and that we should put over us a king from whom Hashem will choose, so we need the Nevi’im for that.
Of course, it’s important, just like Agada and Mussar etc…May 31, 2023 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #2194634
Your opining is in direct contradiction with the Rambam.
You need to be learning the Agadda more☺May 31, 2023 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #2194647
Disregarding Nach seems to be a tradition stemming from (1) focusing on Gemora, (2) backlash to Zionists who highlight Nach as nationalist history and it is hard to argue against, so it is easier to skip.
Still, I don’t think we can call someone who claims Nach is not Torah an apikoires – just an ignoramus.June 1, 2023 12:26 am at 12:26 am #2194682
For second layer I would say:
Sheiltos de Rav Ahai Gaon
S”AJune 1, 2023 12:28 am at 12:28 am #2194684
Yahadus existed before Nach.(don’t worry, I know the midrash that all 24 books were given to Moshe).
Chazal say many times, (and it’s clear in the chumash), that Nach is NOT Torah. Yahadus IS the Bris of the Toras Moshe, nothing else aka the Law of Moshe, AND understanding it.
The Neviim have a very important purpose, but that’s not Yahadus itself.
No one has actually responded to what I said. They just skipped it over.
And if you were on the recent Chabad thread (from which this thread was crafted – in fact, I inspired Yabia Omer to start this thread from there. Ayan Sham), then you would know that I am more “biblical nationalistic” than anyone. I am also an expert in Nach more than many. I believe Halacha is drawn from the pasuk first (Mechilta Sifra Sifrie, before Mishna. So, no, I am not focusing on Gemara too much, although you need it to understand the Law)
This discussion is not about Jewish knowledge or scripture.
It’s about Limud haTorah= “the Law”
Read my previous notes, so I don’t have to repeat multiple times .
We might be saying the same thing but referring to it differentlyJune 1, 2023 12:29 am at 12:29 am #2194685
And to @n0mesorah, the Rambam actually says MY POINT in his introduction to Mishna Torah, that Yahadus is HALACHA.
There is very little else, besides Halacha in the Rambam, and he calls it Mishna Torah! The entire Torah.
See his intro clearly. He held his book was THE ENTIRE TORAH!June 1, 2023 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #2194858
No he doesn’t. We’ll get to the sources. But one question. How do you know what is a Bris, Mitzva, or Halacha, without the aggada?
Now I’m starting to understand what you mean. What you intend with the word ‘Torah’ is vastly different from what myself and the OP are thinking. And while there are times that your meaning is accurate, I strongly argue that the phrase ‘kol hatorah kula’ is not one of them.June 1, 2023 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #2194864ubiquitinParticipant
You are wrong
The Ramabam says His Sefer is synopsis of Torah Shebal peh.
It is called “mishne Torah” because it is second to the Torah is Torah Shebichsav which is Tanach
in the original:
לפיכך קראתי שם חיבור זה משנה תורה. לפי שאדם קורא בתורה שבכתב תחלה ואחר כך קורא בזה ויודע ממנו תורה שבעל פה כולה ואינו צריך לקרות ספר אחר ביניהםJune 1, 2023 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #2194883WolfishMusingsParticipant
Before you can define “Kol HaTorah” you have to define the word “Torah.”
The way it’s used, it usually refers to one of two things:
1. The first five books of the Tanach.
2. The entire corpus of Halachic/Aggadic literature.
Any other definitions are just arbitrary decisions made by the person making the statement.
Also, why is this thread tagged with “Apikuris?” Was the OP hoping I’d respond?
The WolfJune 1, 2023 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2194927
The Torah is :
3. Entire corpus of Rabbinic works
I never tagged “Apikuris”. Not sure where that’s from. Plus I would have spelled it Apikoris or Apikoros.June 1, 2023 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #2194935AviraDeArahParticipant
Nach is the word of Hashem. That’s yahadus.June 4, 2023 12:02 am at 12:02 am #2195380
well, what if you’d like to become a Chosid?
Bava Kamma, I think, suggests several suggestions: to learn (no, not Sichos!) – (1) nezikin, (2) pirkei avos, (3) brochos. So, one of those seforim would be enough after tanach. I presume, therecommendation above assumes that one did not learn any of the above yet, and after learning one of them will be a chosid already.June 5, 2023 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #2195939sechel83Participant
instead of hacking a tzinik and bringing stories why not just open a shulchan aruch – look in shulchan aruch harav hilchos talmud torah, there are different levels, in the begining of perek 3 he says
וכל מי שדעתו וכח זכרונו יפה, שיוכל ללמוד ולזכור כל התורה שבעל פה כולה, הרי זה לא ישא אשה עד שילמוד תחילה תורה שבעל פה כולה, שהן כל ההלכות בטעמיהן בדרך קצרה, שהן פירוש כל התרי”ג מצות בתנאיהן ודקדוקיהן ודקדוקי סופרים…….June 5, 2023 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #2196159
> why not just open a shulchan aruch – look in shulchan aruch harav
if this is not a definition of hacking a chinik, I don’t know what is.June 6, 2023 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #2196739sechel83Participant
yay, when are you turning 3?June 6, 2023 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2196851
Learning them isn’t what makes one a chossid. Terrible misquote on your part.June 8, 2023 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #2197941
I have to think about this second layer.
Anyways, you left out tosofos itself.June 11, 2023 1:58 am at 1:58 am #2198534
I am not against looking shulchan aruch haRav, just don’t call it “a shulchan aruch”, as if it is a legit series from Mehaber to Alter Rebbe to Kitzur.
Reminds of someone who was willing to do a shevua on a monetary issue. The Rav said – our sul has a special minhag, we are not using sefer Torah [turns to the gabbai]: BRING SHNEI LUCHOS HABRIS. The person shrieks and runs away in horror. The gabbai brings the sefer.June 12, 2023 6:25 am at 6:25 am #2198793
I don’t like this second layer at all. It’s all almost on one part (Talmud Bavli) of the original list. And to some extent, it has to be done in the first place. Knowing Yerushalmi without anything else, is not an accomplishment. The truth is, that goes for everything. I can’t learn kol hatorah kula in a vacuum.June 12, 2023 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2198974
n0 > Learning them isn’t what makes one a chossid.
n0, thanks for the correction, of course it is “doing” (lekayam, BK 30a). But that requires learning (lo am haaretz hasid) first, and as we are discussing learning, I got carried away and misquoted… My apology.
Of course, the next question is whether learning leads to doing it, I did not want to run away from that question. So, say someone learns nezikin, but did not accustom himself to do it all the time. Should he skip avos and go to brochos, or should he first take a semester off and practice nezikin?
If we take a high road and say – mishna is meant for someone who already learnt everything, and now needs to focus his maasim in one area, it is still unclear – was he simply learning before and not doing any of them? maybe, with f/t learning and no opportunities to interact with people, and now preparing for that?June 12, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2199035
“Should he take a semester of?”
No. He should stay in yeshiva and be mindful of others. Put back the sefarim he takes out. Clean up his spills. Not interrupt people who are learning. Return a kind word with a smile. Yeshiva is the best place to put what we learn into practice.
The average person starts of learning so that he can continue learning. Most of us slack of before we get to the point that it really transforms us. So we settle for a slight improvement. Our wrongful behavior is very much a part of us before we even learn Aleph Bais.June 12, 2023 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #2199154ChatGPTParticipant
The expression “Kol HaTorah Kula” is a Hebrew phrase that translates to “the entire Torah.” It is often used to convey the idea that a particular topic or concept encompasses the entirety of Jewish law and tradition. While there is no universally agreed-upon definition or official parameters for what exactly constitutes the “entire Torah,” the following texts are generally considered foundational components:
Tanach: This refers to the Hebrew Bible, which consists of three sections: the Torah (the Five Books of Moses), the Nevi’im (Prophets), and the Ketuvim (Writings). The Tanach is considered the core scripture of Judaism.
Mishna: The Mishna is the first major written collection of Jewish oral law. It was compiled by Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi in the 2nd century CE and forms the basis for the Talmud.
Tosefta: The Tosefta is a collection of legal and ritual teachings that complements the Mishna. It was likely compiled around the same time as the Mishna and provides additional insights into Jewish law.
Gemara: The Gemara is the rabbinic commentary and analysis of the Mishna. There are two versions of the Gemara—the Gemara Bavli (Babylonian Talmud) and the Gemara Yerushalmi (Jerusalem Talmud). These texts contain extensive discussions and debates on Jewish law, ethics, and theology.
Midrash: Midrashic literature includes a wide range of homiletical and interpretive works that provide insights into the biblical text. They often contain legends, parables, and moral teachings.
Zohar: The Zohar is the foundational text of Jewish mysticism known as Kabbalah. It explores esoteric and mystical interpretations of the Torah and other biblical texts.
While these texts are often considered essential in Jewish study and are typically included when referring to “Kol HaTorah Kula,” different Jewish communities and scholars may have varying interpretations and inclusions beyond this list. The parameters of “Kol HaTorah Kula” can be subject to personal or communal interpretations within the broader framework of Jewish tradition and scholarship.June 13, 2023 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #2199521
n0 > He should stay in yeshiva and be mindful of others
Great suggestion. But what takes? If he learned a masechta and did not start implementing it yet, why would he suddenly change? In other words, is Bava Kamma addressing someone who already learned and somehow did not start doing!?June 14, 2023 10:13 am at 10:13 am #2199618
Good point! Still, he should learn it again with being more mindful of it’s implementation. I can’t think of anything outside the Yeshiva that would help one be more mindful. Can you?June 14, 2023 10:13 am at 10:13 am #2199619
This is the problem with chatbots.
The above post has some serious mistakes and nobody thinks to correct it.June 15, 2023 1:48 am at 1:48 am #2199872
n0 > I can’t think of anything outside the Yeshiva that would help one be more mindful. Can you?
yes, hard facts. Getting low grade on SAT/LSAT/GRE, getting rejected at job interview, effort to get to the train on time very day, fired from a job for being late or rude to customers, hard (mental) work required to either do a job or come up with something new – all of that might give a person objective feedback and impetus to change. I am not saying that this cannot be learned in yeshiva, but I think general educational trend is “lake wabegon” where “everyone is above average”. And I am not saying that everyone will learn from school of hard knocks – some might simply blame anti-semites for their problems, as the Mishna says – not every socher becomes chacham.
Just a personal illustration. I thought I am reasonably polite to people at work, until I had a colleague (who himself trained himself from a lowly background) who would know by name, say hello first, and cheer up every guard and other invisible people … I hope I learned something from that.
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