Kol Isha

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  • #869335
    oomis
    Participant

    “There is no such thing as a chumra by Tzenius”

    I think that statement is a little hyperbolic. There absolutely IS such a think as being too tzniusdig. When a woman (or man, for that matter) takes tznius to such a level that it interferes with their normal intimate relationship and sholom bayis,it is tzu fil.

    #869336
    far east
    Member

    can someone please give a straight up answer on whether listening to a recording is different from in person…ive always been under the assumption that kol isha was because you may be tempted by the women, but hearing a recording is different.

    #869337
    oomis
    Participant

    Whatever others were taught, I was taught that a live performance that was not done with a microphone, was assur, but that there are opinions that a microphone alters the actual voice, so one is not hearing live singing. I was further taught that a recording is muttar.

    #869338
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    oomis 1105- you were well taught !

    #869339
    avhaben
    Participant

    How do I stop my neighbor from singing loud enough that I can hear her through the wall?

    #869340
    Sam2
    Participant

    Ahaben: You don’t. It’s your issue, not hers. Wear earplugs. (At least, if she’s not Jewish. If she is then there might be some interesting discussions.)

    #869341
    avhaben
    Participant

    She’s Jewish.

    Now what?

    (Even if she weren’t, airplugs wouldn’t help unless I wore them all day, since it can be at random times. Otherwise I’d hear it at least until I could plug them in each time.)

    #869342
    MDG
    Participant

    Rav Ovadia Yosef is lenient for recordings IF the man does not know what she looks like.

    When it comes to speaking voice (Kiddushin 70), I learned that the Gemara is talking about going out of one’s way to hear a speaking voice – and that is Assur. Normally, we exchange information when we speak and that is Mutar. But talking for the sake of enjoying her voice becomes Kol Isha.

    #869343
    Sam2
    Participant

    MDG: That’s not an Issur of Kol Isha, that’s an Issur of looking/interacting with a woman in any way for inappropriate enjoyment. Afilu Etzbah K’tanah…

    #869344
    MDG
    Participant

    “MDG: That’s not an Issur of Kol Isha, that’s an Issur of looking/interacting with a woman in any way for inappropriate enjoyment. Afilu Etzbah K’tanah… “

    IMHO, inappropriate enjoyment of the voice is called Kol Isha.

    Anyways, I was quoting the Magid Shiur that I learned it from. For the sake of anonymity, I’m not saying who it was.

    #869345
    Toi
    Participant

    When Sam2 is the right-winger cautioning those to the left of him, you know the cr is shifting crowds.

    #869346
    squeak
    Participant

    Avhaben, marry her.

    #869347
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Avhaben, marry her.

    That is a good solution. Of course, it will only help for most of the month. (Am I correct about that? It isn’t bfeirush in the shulchan aruch by harchakas nidda.)

    I think the better solution is to kill her.

    #869348
    Chacham
    Participant

    popa see the beis shmuel in even haezer 21,4

    see also http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=48274&st=&pgnum=52

    #869349
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I think you’re wrong on that. The Halachah is that a man can look at a wife when she’s a Niddah. Why would singing be any different?

    Toi: I’m not sure what you mean by that. I don’t believe in this right and left business anyway. I follow Halachah as brought down in the Poskim. I’m not sure why others expect differently, either “Lehakel” or “Lehachmir”.

    #869350
    Sam2
    Participant

    Chacham: He doesn’t answer PBA’s question, from what I saw. Interestingly though, he threw in two Halachos in there to show that he doesn’t hold like the Sridei Aish.

    Also, his question in footnote 96 seems to be against a B’feirush Gemara.

    #869351
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I only looked at the one you linked (link the other one, please), but I don’t see what you are citing to. It doesn’t talk about ishto nidda.

    #869352
    squeak
    Participant

    I thought it was obvious that I meant marry her with kedushin al tinai that she gets spayed.

    #869353
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam: I’m wondering whether to analogize it to looking at ?????? ??????? which is assur, or to mekomos hamegulim which is muttar.

    #869354
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Another brother of mine who reads but doesn’t often post, alerted me to the pischei teshuva there, who asks this question, and does not answer.

    ?) ????? ?? ??? ????? – ?”? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?”? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???????? ?? ?”? ???’ ??????? ?? ?”? ????? ????? ?”? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ?????? ?? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???”? ?? ????? ????? ??”? ?? ??????? ??”?:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9146&st=&pgnum=315

    #869355
    Chacham
    Participant

    SAm2- The question in 96 is indeed a strange qustion. But which mefurash gemara are you talking about.

    Either way I found a Reb Moshe on this see http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&st=&pgnum=139

    see also: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46217&st=&pgnum=232&hilite=

    (but I don’t like when seforim say things as a davar pashut with no mekor)

    And is anybody else annoyed that from the many wonderful seforim hebrewbooks has they are missing most of the chalokim of the normal printing of shulchan aruch with nosei keilim.

    #869356
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Mekomos Hamegulim is only Assur when the intent is to have Hanaa. Singing is Assur even without explicit intent.

    The Gemara in Kedushin is hard to base things on, anyhow. As the conversation went on you see that he didn’t want to send regards to his wife even through the husband. It seems like, as MDG said, Kol Isha is sort of a relative, or borrowed, term.

    #869357
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I thought Mekomos Hamechusim was also Muttar by Ishto Niddah. They’re not? I guess I could be wrong but I thought that was Muttar from the same S’vara as Yichud is. (And no, I’m not married.)

    #869358
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Oomis is making a grave mistake. Regardless of whether we Pasken like a certain Mishna or Tanna, you can’t dismiss the words of a Tanna with your petty feelings and arguments! If we end up not Paskenning that way, it is not for your reason.

    When we don’t Pasken like Beis Shammai, it is not because we laugh or even dislike their Shita. Eilu Va’eilu Divrei Elokim Chaim. The Halacha happens not to be like them.

    #869359
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    PBA: I thought Mekomos Hamechusim was also Muttar by Ishto Niddah. They’re not? I guess I could be wrong but I thought that was Muttar from the same S’vara as Yichud is. (And no, I’m not married.)

    Nope, see the mechaber 7 in the link I put above.

    #869360
    avhaben
    Participant

    That is often the result when a woman involves herslef in a halachic discussion.

    #869361
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam2, Yichud is Muttar Bedochak. You can’t make him move out.

    #869362
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I stand corrected.

    #869363
    Sam2
    Participant

    Chacham: It’s Mefurash that a woman can read the Megillah for a man. Unless you want to say that means read without the Trop (which someone would have said), then it’s obvious that whatever musical inflection is involved in Leining isn’t enough to be considered Kol Ishah.

    #869364
    oomis
    Participant

    Haleivi, I think most people would say I am neither petty nor argumentative. You can agree or disagree with me, but please be civil.

    #869365
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Is a woman’s posting considered Kol Isha. Isn’t it “talking”?

    #869366
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam: shkoyach. You now get to join my club on the CR of people who will say they were incorrect about something. It is a pretty exclusive club. And one of the other members is a retard.

    #869367
    shtiky shlo
    Member

    If you want to listen you can get a heter for anything nowerdays but doesn’t mean it’s right jewishly

    #869368
    Chacham
    Participant

    sam2- I hear.

    #869369
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    My point was that any feelings are petty in Halacha or in contrast to the holy words of a Tanna.

    Keep in mind how Reb Yochanan punished a Talmid for having a hard time digesting his Drasha on a matter of Aggada. Reb Yochanan said, at another time, that one may only say what he is completely sure is the case. The Gemara says in more than one place that Hakadosh Baruch Hu quoted the words of the Chachamim.

    Abaye said that when he had a small chore to do on his way home, his learning wouldn’t be the same. So completely engrossed in his learning was he. Their explanations were never off the bat. Every word is loaded with Chochma.

    There are plenty of Sefarim explaining the depth and wisdom of Pirkey Avos. Whether or not we follow a particular Mishna, it never makes sense to say that it can’t be the Halacha because it’s not nice. A Tanna said it.

    It is appropriate to express your Kasha. Sometimes it can remain a Kasha; most times not. In this case, I think the story mentioned by Toi explains it very well.

    #869370
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I’ve admitted I’m wrong before in here… I think. 🙂

    #869371
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I wonder if there is a Hetter to listen to a recording of a woman that you knew, but was Niftar. The Gemara says is Sota that the Yetzer Hora is not Sholet on someone who is dead.

    #869372
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: That should be a Machlokes Achronim. I don’t recall who says what (I learned this in like 4th grade), but I know there is a Machlokes Achronim about whether Kol Ishah is because it will cause you to have a Hirhur for this particular woman or because it will cause Hirhur in general for any woman.

    #869373
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Could it be worse than looking at the Sota?

    #869374
    Sam2
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Doesn’t the Gemara say that if she was pretty they wouldn’t look at her?

    #869375
    squeak
    Participant

    No, but it does raise the question.

    #869376
    oomis
    Participant

    Good looks are a very subjective issue. The Torah is not subjective.

Viewing 42 posts - 51 through 92 (of 92 total)
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