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today is has become a standard for many yeshiva world jews to stay in kolel for life or at least many yrs.
im wondering if this is going to far, i agree that somone who has a geshmak in learning and enjoys it, should stay in kolel at least for a while as long as he has support from a father or father in law who are happy to support him
but for someone who doesn’t feel satisfied in learning this usually leeds to not good outcomes including even avairos like it says in pirkai avos.
also to put the whole pressure of making an income on the wife is not fair, its the mans responsibility, he writes it in the kesuba, and it has become pair pressure, so you never know who really wants to support their husband learning and who its just pair pressure
and is it fair to the kids growing up without proper food etc.Dear Bent,
1) One doesn’t support to stay in kolel for many years.
2) Feels satisfied or not is not the question. Is he growing in his learning?
3) I don’t know where to find fair in shas, but kesuba applies to non learning husbands as well.
4) Hopefully, a married woman is mature enough to tell her husband what she wants.
5) kids are not starving as much as they eat unhealthy in the USA.
kids are not starving, indeed. If someone can convince his wife to live like people lived 200 years ago, forego vacations and wooden floors, he can indeed learn his whole life while working maybe 3-4 hours a week + foodstamps.
i have an idea, since the women need to work in lakewood, the men should make groups of 10-20 in a shul or room, all bring their babies to a corner or side room, and if the baby cries the father can give him a bottle and or hold him, you can even have a rotation that one of the men should check on the babies every hour or more often.
common, do you think daycare is just about feeding babies when they cry?
Children need stimulation. Daycare providers are actually trained in this, and they play with the kids for a good part of the day.IF you look at the frum community from the outside, what you would notice is a community in which learning Torah and doing mitsvos is the overwhelming activity (to the detriment of such activities as hobbies, the arts, recreations the goyim love that we don’t talk about here, sports, secular studies and making a parnassah beyond what is needed to maintain an ever-changing “respectable” standard of living). The fact that a person in modern day America or Eretz Yisrael can learn close to full time and still have a standard of living that 200 years ago would have been considered to be very bourgeois at the least (in terms of housing, medical care, food, transportation, etc.) helps explain why “kollel” people are perceived today to be willing to spend more time learning than in the past. What Yidden like best has always been learning, and there never has been such a good time for it as in the early 21st century.
@damoshe, not my words its the OPs words
Listen to this shiur on TorahAnyTime: Rabbi Yisroel Brog: How Kollel saved Klal Yisroel! https://www.torahanytime .com/#/lectures?v=66172
In my opinion, no one has the right to expect other people to provide parnasah. If you are willing to sacrifice, you may only do so on behalf of yourself. The notion that everyone needs to take part in the expenses for your parnasah and to help pay for your children’s weddings is outrageous.
> Daycare providers are actually trained in this, and they play with the kids for a good part of the day.
Exactly. Parents are not trained. Give your kids to daycare/kindergarten/school/yeshiva/seminary/shadchan professionals and they’ll perform the mitzva of shinantem levanecha on your behalf with all chumros.
I would think that this amazing generation – dor hakollel – would be uniquely qualified to lead their own children to spiritual heights.
@aAQ
Working 3-4 hours a day plus food stampsSo the general population should support/feed him and his family?
In many places those in school/learning would be ruled ineligible for assistance.
It is called ‘poor by choice’ able bodied adults are expected to get a paying jobBTW: the Republican Party who do many in the CR hold dearly would do away with this benefit or make Mr. Kollel work 20-40 hours each week to qualify for assistance.
I would just like to say that in Democrat NY State, the rule is to get SNAP benefits, all adults must work 20 hrs per week, even students. The only ones who don’t have to, is the primary caregiver of young children, which would be one parent. Even in the general public, the idea of the dad being the primary caregiver is becoming much more common. This is true even if all the children are in daycare.
Ctl, my suggestion was opposite: work 3 4 hours a WEEK, not a day, enough to support oneself and family at 19th century level, no government assistance has vesholom. If there is someone learning like that, I’ll consider contributing to him, bli neder and/or convince ctl to do the same.
One of the issues with kollelim that I have seen is that eventually guys in kollel want to move on and become a Rebbe, shol umashiv etc due to parnassah but also due to the fact that at a certain age people begin to get more of a sipuk teaching and giving over Torah than just learning all day.
The problem then is that the Rebbe job market is ridiculously flooded and yungleit often have trouble finding a job in chinuch. They now have been out of high school for say 10+ years and have no skillset to get high paying secular jobs. For them to start college at that age is hard especially with kids. The transition out of kollel is rough.
Marx, plenty of kolel guys take courses at night, i know several who went into the skilled trades, others open businesses..plus as the klal grows and more children are born, they need more rebbeim.
People misunderstand the size of the kollel population; it’s a fraction of the klal, especially if you count chasidim, which hire very yeshivish litvishe for upper grade gemara shiurim.
CTLAWYER
As mentioned in another thread, after taxes, government programs, and tuition benefits there is very little difference between earning 100 to 250k (between the Mr. and Mrs.).
Even with a solid education it’s difficult to crack that number.
That’s the American system. It ENCOURAGES one to earn less so they qualify for programs.
No, the Torah world does not mind.Marxist
The market was flooded 5 to 10 years ago. It’s not as much today. Instead a higher percentage of talented individuals are opening up their own business or taking a fast-track educational program and then earning a decent parnassah (at least between the husband and wife to crack that minimum 100k)@CTL, I have been a Republican long before the Donald hijacked my party, and I have zero problem with a work requirement, being a tutor running a gemach etc for 20 hours a week should not be an issue.
@AAQ
Sorry, but your suggest of 3-4 hours of work plus food stamps allowing the learner to support his family at any level is nonsense!
As soon as the learner is accepting Foos Stamps he is not supporting his family, all the American Taxpayers are supporting his family.Ctl, do you think a person is given more schar in shomayim for supporting their family than for excelling un Torah? The two aren’t mutually exclusive, but for some people, they are unable to do both.
What is the solution? The fact is that it is difficult to crack a 250k income. With the government program handouts, in this American system what is one to do?
Avirah, reality check! By the frumer Litvishe everybody goes to kollel and some do by the Chassidim. It is not a tiny percentage by any means!
OP, Gemora in Eiruvin says that divrei Torah get preserved only in those who are as cruel to their children as a crow (by giving them substandard food).@FollowMesorah
I agree with CTLAWYER about 1% of the time (possibly even less) but this is one of those times.
If you can’t crack $250,000 then don’t live as if you are. It’s definitely possible for the average couple to make savvy financial decisions and live with much less.
There are things that can done to lower costs.
edited
Families today have a need for vacations, and all sorts of fancy things, whether it’s bein hazmanim, or other times. Who pays for the vacations? I haven’t been on a vacation in years, because I pay tuition for my kids. I’ve been married for over 15 years, and in all that time, my wife and I went on one real vacation – where we used credit card points to pay for the flights, found a cheap AirBNB to stay in, and just overall did not spend a lot. We’ve never been on a family vacation, where the kids went with us. Maybe one year soon I’ll have the money for it! So why do families think it’s ok to live off of government programs and tzedakah, and then take vacations?
Clothing is another big one. Frum stores, which sell tznius clothes, charge outlandish prices. $75 for a simple skirt for a young girl??? It’s crazy! My wife found websites that sell tznius clothes for much cheaper, and she buys clothes for herself and our daughter there. Instead of $75 for a skirt, she pays maybe $15-$20.
Expenses can be cut, if you’re willing to make the sacrifices. The issue is that nowadays, most people aren’t willing.Mdd, everyone goes, but few stay.
Ctl, I didn’t suggest taking food stamps, did I!?
Get some professional knowledge whether through college or self learning or friends, work 4 hours a week for $100. That is 21 k per year to live as a poor ehrlihe talmid chachamAvira, so a ” kollel” person who works at night is exactly the working model I am for. Just not take someone’s money that they didn’t offer you explicitly to support your learning
A question what is more important: learn or have an ehrliche life is ridiculous. How often do you ask whether eating kosher or davening is more important?
Or maybe tell your wife that you are busy this month, so which out of 3 obligations she could drop?
DaMoshe, I don’t disagree but you are discussing what is called first world problems… I am saying that if someone is inspired to learn torah as much as possible, he should live on bread and water in a simple apartment, not even earning enough miles.
I have to admit that last parsha supports Aviras view, it says that Hashem will give us blessings so that we could sit and learn, while goyim are working for us. Well said.
Avira > given more schar in shomayim for supporting their family than for excelling un Torah
I think I found one view on this question: someone remarked to r Salanter that if a certain student of his spent all his time on Gemora instead of mussar, he would be a world 🌎 famous talmid chacham.. Rav answered that if you have two challos, you use the one that is more beautiful, not the one that is larger.
Obviously, not everyone agrees, so this disagreement is bigger than a view on foodstamps, so worth arguing@FollowMesorah
“(at least between the husband and wife to crack that minimum 100k)”For a frum couple, the minimum is more like 150K or even more depending on the number of kids they have and in which community they live but 100K is not going to cut it.
100k With:
Tax refund
Section 8
Food stamps
Free insurance
Half priced clothing
Dwd
Chasdie lev
Tuition?
150k with only some of the aboveKeep in mind, a morah may be working very hard, but still may only be bringing in 35k. Some men have trouble making 65 which is why 100k is something to talk about even though I agree with you the 150k is more realistic number to discuss.
Always, where does it say that in the last week’s parsha?!?
Follow…, taking Section 8 and food stamps by many is chilul H’ and hisgarus be’umos.The gemara in brochos darshens v’asafta deganecha as referring to when we’re not zocheh; when we are zocheh, our work is done for us by goyim so we can learn and be oved Hashem freely
Avirah, you are talking about the times of Moshiach, I am talking about olam ha’ze.
AAQ, unfortunately, the mods censored part of my response, IMO for no good reason. It wasn’t all First World Problems that I mentioned as possible fixes.
mdd1
As I wrote earlier, I am personally not getting into the “should you” debate.
I am focusing on a reality that drives the vast majority of Americans major decision making process. This includes schooling and job type.For many, there is very little difference between earning 100k and 250k, and how many have the potential to earn more than 250? I think even in this room most would agree college wouldn’t help reach that crucial 250k.
Leave the “should you” debate out, the reality is different and right now the socialist world we live in is promoting it (like it or not).
“For many, there is very little difference between earning 100k and 250k,”
That is the most absurd thing I have seen you post.
Doctors told Netziv to take a vacation on beautiful serene Litvishe lakes (that look similar to Lakewood lakes, but with more trees). He could not take idleness though and ran away back to Volozhin after several days.
DaMoshe,
when you have an opinion that mods think is not kosher (they went to the same schools everyone else did!) – you need to find an amorah to support it. Mods rarely censor amorahs.
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