October 21, 2010 8:31 am at 8:31 am #592722fabieMember
Yesterday evening my wife went to an evening for women with day care in their homes. Someone from Hidabrut spoke and told the following story:
A woman calls the represantitive of Hidabroot and describes a conversation she had with a Rav.
I have a son in Shidduchim, he has the choice of two fine girls, one who’s father learns full time in Kollel, but has no money, and the second one who learns part, has respect for learning, but has money. Question, which one should we take. The Rav’s answer, the second one.
She responds. I don’t have an actual son, I have a daughter, she’s in her late 20’s today. I called you ten years ago regarding my husband who learns a full day in Kollel, and asked you, if it’s better that he should continue learning or go to work part time. You responded that he should continue learning.
Your thoughts.October 21, 2010 11:22 am at 11:22 am #702984HelpfulMember
Everyone’s situation is different. What was right for her husband 20 years ago is not necessarily right for her hypothetical so today. The Rov needs to evaluate their needs and situation based on their current situation now, as he did for them 20 years ago.
Wise Rov.October 21, 2010 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #702985real-briskerMember
Simple answer – Regarding the shidduch obviously your daughter is not marrying the shver, so it doesnt make a diffrnce to your daughter what his learning status is. Regarding your husband its poshut that he should stay in kollel the question has regarding himself, not somone else!October 21, 2010 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #702986gavra_at_workParticipant
Agree with helpful.
In the first example, the Rov looks out for Limud Torah without regard for the girl.
In the second example, the Rov looks out for Limud Torah without regard for the girl.
Why is this a Steerah?October 21, 2010 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #702987bptParticipant
I don’t know the Rov, but its possible that from the way the question was posed (both then and now) the question indicated the answer the person wanted (needed?) to hear.
On a situation that can go either way, a smart Rov will make the call as he sees fit for that instance.
Had the question been, “is pork kosher”? the answer would have been no both times. The “work/learn” question has so many variables, its impossible to have a “one size fits all” answer.
Kinda like “other” rov shailos. To the same question,one person gets a yes, the other gets a no. And both are the correct answers. That’s what rabbonim are here for.October 21, 2010 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #702989aposhitermaidelParticipant
The problem here is not that the father is learning – it is that the girl wants to marry a learning boy – but is planning to be dependent upon her father for support. The girl is in her late 20s – what has she been doing for the past 10 years to increase her education and earning power? If she wants a boy who is learning – it is her responsibility to try to make it work.
I had parents with absolutely no money but I wanted a learning boy. I went to school and got a good job and supported my husband in Kolel for 15 years. It was not easy. I did not have summers or Yomim Tovim off like my friends who are teachers (or work half a day for that matter). But B”H – we were able to do it without taking money from anybody or going on any programs. I know that Parnassah is from the Aibeshter – and am not saying that it was me – but I did do my hishtadlus and did not expect my parents or inlaws to support us. I have many friends who did what I did – and we all had Kovodik parnassah. There is no reason for a girl to settle on making $15,000 a year because she has no education. You can get Pell grants if you can’t afford it. Teaching is beautiful and very idealistic – but is incompatable with a Kollel life unless you want to be on govt programs or have rich parents.October 21, 2010 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #702990gavra_at_workParticipant
I have no hesitation in saying that the OP has presented a compelling story showing the hypocrisy of the last generation’s hashkafah.
Torah at all costs is not hypocrisy.October 21, 2010 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #702991SacrilegeMember
I completely agree with ShlomoZalman.
Torah is the ultimate, until… you need a FIL to support you. Give me a break.
I see this all the time with my friend. Nauseating.
Where did you get that info from? Not from the above story related. Most likely the girl has been working and the BOY wants support.October 21, 2010 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #702992bptParticipant
Wow, Poshitermaydel. All I can say is, you are FAR from poshit.
I envy your conviction. Really.October 21, 2010 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #702993
I agree with gavra.
I find nothing remotely disturbing about this story.
Here’s another story:
Reuven comes to Rov and asks if his son Yehuda should marry Shprintza with bad middos or Yentel with good middos. He says good Yentel.
Shimon comes and asks if his daughter should marry Yehuda with bad middos. He says no.
“But you told Reuven his son should marry my daughter!”
And then on YWN they call the Rov a hypocrite.
It was the right thing for the father to learn; he was able to survive. It is the right thing to marry the girl with money; it will help you survive.
Besides, the logical conclusion of your argument is that the daughter should not marry a learning guy anyway, out of concern for her kids shidduchim, so who will learn?October 22, 2010 1:27 am at 1:27 am #702994Josh31Participant
Fabie’s OP on this thread shows that learning can not be done in a vacuum.
If your learning is being done when you you have obligations to your wife and / or daughters and / or sons; and by learning you default on these obligations; you have not fulfilled the Mitzvah of learning.October 22, 2010 3:44 am at 3:44 am #702995
Without reading any of the posts but the first one, my thoughts are that in 20 years or so, none of our Kollel families will be able to encourage their sons to sit and learn, because there will be no frum people earning enough money in the previous generation (due to their insistence on not becoming educated in a decent profession), to support the learning of the next generation. Then, they will realize the ramifications of their short-sighted approach to learning but not earning. This is not what Hashem asks of us, and the evidence is in the Torah which deals with tons of mitzvos related to work ethics. Those mitzvos can only be fulfilled if one actually works.October 22, 2010 3:45 am at 3:45 am #702996
“Torah at all costs is not hypocrisy. “
No, but neither is it practical. Im ein kemach, ein Torah.October 22, 2010 3:47 am at 3:47 am #702997
The girl is in her late 20s – what has she been doing for the past 10 years to increase her education and earning power? If she wants a boy who is learning -“
A man old enough to marry a girl in her late 20s, probably should have been earning a parnassah for a couple of years by now. Maot boys who learn in Kollel after marriage and who learn for a couple of years, are in their very early 20s.October 22, 2010 7:48 am at 7:48 am #702998Ben TorahParticipant
Im ein kemach, ein Torah.
All Chazals, such as Im ain kemach ain torah, just means that if you have no food, you cannot learn. Other Chazals say that if you have no food and you try to learn anyway, you will end up having to steal to eat, and what good is that. None of this has anything to do with Kollel. If you are supported by your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife, you are not in a situation where you have to steal, and you have fulfilled the Chazal.October 22, 2010 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #702999
Then, they will realize the ramifications of their short-sighted approach to learning but not earning.
I fail to see this argument. If in 20 years, it is no longer feasible, they will no longer do it. How does it makes sense to not learn now because in 20 years you won’t be able to.?In 100 years, we’ll be dead, and not able to learn at all, but it doesn’t stop me now.October 22, 2010 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #703000squeakParticipant
Unless being supported by unknown sources (read: government programs, discounts on tuition and at kosher supermarkets, etc) IS stealing. Just sayin’October 22, 2010 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #703001
Eh, forget about 20 years. It’s happening now among kids who see their parents unable to make ends meet, let alone commit to any regular support.October 22, 2010 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #703002yitzy99Member
‘If in 20 years, it is no longer feasible, they will no longer do it.”
The culture of dependency may have very negative long term effects.October 22, 2010 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #703003
The culture of dependency may have very negative long term effects.
Perhaps. There is a different culture, which criticizes people who learn, without any real regard for what is actually going on. That culture has very serious short and long term effects.
By which I mean. We can have this discussion. But it needs to be honest on both sides, and cannot have any prejudices. I perceive that often, arguments against those who learn, are not rooted in any reality.October 22, 2010 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #703004
Torah at all costs is not hypocrisy.
If it comes at the expense of your family, it is. Because taking care of your family is a Torah value.
I don’t think the OP is really contradictory though.
The problem with the learning without earning is that when people find it “unaffordable” they can’t jump to earning $100,000 to support their 7 kids in Yeshiva. If you think you don’t need $100,000 to support 7 kids, you must not be sending your kids to Yeshiva or paying much of tuition. In which case you aren’t supporting your family, you are still living off others. So define “affordable.”October 22, 2010 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #703005theprof1Participant
Shlomo meets a kollel yungerman and asks him, what do you do? Yungerman, I’m a programmer. Really, asks Shlomo, what kind? Oh says yungerman, all kinds of programs, Section 8, WIC, food stamps, Medicaid.October 22, 2010 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #703006
That doesn’t bother me.
I don’t think a person is negligent towards klal yisroel if his learning precludes him from paying his kids tuition- in the present or in the future.
As far as your family’s needs, you need to be honest and also get advice from daas torah. Perhaps if you wish to learn, you should only date girls from wealthy families. That would narrow your options, but you need to be honest about what your goals are.October 22, 2010 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #703008mybatMember
I knew a guy whose parents were really very, very wealthy. When he asked a Rabbi who he should go for the poorer girl or the richer girl the rov answered the richer girl.October 22, 2010 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #703009arcParticipant
the reason we say we say half the answer is the question is because literally, how ask the question is half the answer.October 22, 2010 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #703010
Popa, considering the state of Yeshivas nowadays and how many are in dire financial situations, its harming your neighbors when you don’t pay tuition. You are harming the Rebbeim when the schools don’t have enough money to pay them and htey can’t afford to feed their families. At some point, something has to give.
Living off others is not a Torah value. But I agree, if you want to learn long term, you should marry rich. Or a woman with a job that can provide.October 22, 2010 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #703011
SJS, if you start earning 100k early enough, it may be enough. But not necessarily.October 22, 2010 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #703012
Yes Tzippi, but if you leave Kollel at 30 with 7 kids, its almost impossible to be earning enough. Its hard enough starting right out of college with no kids.
I think I’m one of the few people with kids not yet in Yeshiva who earns a decent salary and still stresses out how to pay tuition bills. We already have a few years tuition socked away.October 22, 2010 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #703013
We disagree on whether it is proper to learn and neglect your tuition obligations.
We can disagree on this issue. But we should agree on the premises.
I think there is a personal decision, and a community decision.
The personal decision should be made in accordance with the opinion of your rebbeim. My rebbeim think it is more important to learn.
The community decision should be made by the school in accordance with their rabbis.
If you have made a personal decision which is not the same as your schools decision, if it really bothers you, you can switch schools.October 22, 2010 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #703014
If I had to pay yeshiva tuition today (and the Yeshivas are not giving such great scholarships as they did in the days when I did pay it), I could never afford to send my kids to Yeshiva. They would have to go to Public School and be taught limudei kodesh separately. I am forever grateful to my kids’ Yeshivos for being so extremely generous to us back in the day. Today, there are fewer donors to the scholarship fund, and more people who have experienced layoffs and lifestyle changes. I don’t know how anyone at all, affords Yeshiva.October 22, 2010 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #703015
This story i heard about 10 years ago through an acquaintance of mine who does shidduchim.
In short,many parents of boys or the boys themselves are looking for a shver who is/has a PHD—Pappa Has Dough(money)!
Going to the comment of rich girl should marry rich boy, in a recent story, the father of the boy wanted to prepare himself in the right manner so he went into hock to fix up their home, drive a nice car, and live the life of rich. His wife was upset but he said this way they’ll make a rich shidduch which they did only to find out that the girl’s side did the same. Anyway the kids got married and learned to live on their own while their parents were paying off debts!!!October 22, 2010 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #703016mw13Participant
“in 20 years or so, none of our Kollel families will be able to encourage their sons to sit and learn, because there will be no frum people earning enough money in the previous generation (due to their insistence on not becoming educated in a decent profession), to support the learning of the next generation. Then, they will realize the ramifications of their short-sighted approach to learning but not earning.”
Yes, because Hashem can’t make sure we have what to eat, right? We have to do it ourselves. Do those short-sighted frummies really think that Hashem runs the world?! Sheesh, these extremists…October 24, 2010 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #703018
mw13, I don’t agree with the way things were expressed in the paragraph you snipped but I don’t know where you live, it’s happening already!!!
And the people who are struggling know Hashem runs the world and have PhD’s in bitachon and emunah. They simply know that they can’t promise what they don’t even have for themselves.
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