February 10, 2015 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1065971
I’m not telling you that everyone can be in Kollel, all I’m saying is that one has to appreciate and respect those who are living the ideal life of being fully immersed in Torah study.
100% agreed. They just lose my respect when they expect others to pay for their lifestyle. I have way more respect for the American rebbe with 8 children in a one bedroom apartment than the kollel guy from EY who expects me to pay for their children’s apartment.
I think we agree.February 10, 2015 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1065972
The least we can all do is to back and support them, each to his ability – and I’m sure that even your sources would agree to that. What better tzedaka can there be than helping people fulfill the purpose of this world’s creation.
We Jews have something called the Shulchan Aruch which guides our lives. Check out Yorah Dayah siman 249, where he discusses which Tzedakos are the most important. Kollel isn’t even on the list.
I’ll choose the Shulchan Aruch over your Boich Svarah.February 10, 2015 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1065973zahavasdadParticipant
When you have 8 kids , your #1 responsibility is taking care of those kids. Making sure they are properly fed, Have decent clothes are healthy and have a decent roof over your head.
That trumps any other responsibilityFebruary 10, 2015 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1065974
251: 9 ????February 10, 2015 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1065975DaMosheParticipant
When it comes to tzedakah, my first priority is the school my kids attend. I’ll be honest. Many times I can’t afford the full tuition payments, and the school is extremely nice to us, and helps us with a scholarship. So when I have any extra money, I don’t give it to someone in kollel. I give it to the school.
If I have a lot of extra tzedakah money, I also give to Bonei Olam. I’ve written about the fertility treatments my wife and I went through. Bonei Olam was a tremendous help to us. I try to support them.
There’s a tzedakah organization which handles almost every need within my community, whether it’s help with medical bills, food, rent/mortgage, or anything else. I give them money when I can.
I also try to support the yeshiva I attended, Darchei Torah.
So supporting someone in kollel is not even really on the radar for me. I think my community comes first, then comes places I am somewhat beholden to. I’d then possibly consider a kollel. Unfortunately, right now, I don’t have that much money to give.February 10, 2015 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1065976
251: 9 ????
For certain, once you are giving to individual poor people, which is further down on the list.
ThanksFebruary 10, 2015 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1065977
So you think if you give to an organization with the purpose of giving to individuals it doesn’t count?
Boich sevara.February 10, 2015 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1065978
DY: Nope. 249 is before anyone on 251.February 10, 2015 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1065979zahavasdadParticipant
Its a higher form of Tzedah to give someone a job or if you are not in a position to do so, help them get oneFebruary 10, 2015 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1065980
Which part are you talking about?February 10, 2015 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1065981
Also, you’re aware, I’m sure, that supporting ???? in any form (including kollel) is an exception to ?? ????? ???? ?????.February 10, 2015 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1065982
249:16February 10, 2015 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1065983
259: 2 (really, the very one you quoted as well).February 10, 2015 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1065984
Also, you’re aware, I’m sure, that supporting ???? in any form (including kollel) is an exception to ?? ????? ???? ?????.
News to me, what the source?
259:2 is dealing with Maalin B’Kodesh, which is a different (and external) issue to what gets Kadimah. Besides, the best thing to give in 249:16 (children learning Torah) (seemingly) would cover all bases.February 10, 2015 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1065985
???? ??? (I’ll try to find the precise ?”? later).
So, supporting Torah is a higher form of tzedakah, but for some reason, you think only one form (for children) has kedimah.February 10, 2015 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1065986
Chapter 20: 4, from the Shittah M’kubetzes in Kesobos 49.February 10, 2015 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1065987
Chapter 20 of what? and I couldn’t find it in the Shittah, if you could please give me a dibur hamaschil.February 10, 2015 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1065988
Ahavas Chessed.February 10, 2015 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1065989
DY: Thanks. I’m not doubting the CC, but I still couldn’t find it in the Shittah, and it is not pashut to say that Yissachar-Zevulan is Tzedakah and not a partnership.
Either way, it still is behind Bais HaKenesses and Yeshiva Tuition, which was my point.
Which one is more Kadosh != which is more important or “higher” (which I don’t know what you mean by that).February 10, 2015 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1065990
No, it’s not behind beis haknesses, and a person’s own tuition obligation does come first because it’s his own chov, and his own family.
You can’t switch from Torah to beis haknesses because Torah is more important, but the other way, you can.February 10, 2015 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1065991enlightenedjewMember
Kollel life – fantasy.February 10, 2015 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1065992
DY – WADR, the Taz & the Shach agree with me that the issue there is Maalin Kedusha, not importance.
If you know of someone who disagrees and says it is because Torah learning is more important than either a Bais Knesses or Limud HaTorah for children (listed in 249:16) or marrying off Yesomos (listed in 249:15), I would be glad to see them, but that is not the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch.
BTW, see the Pischei Teshuva there regarding Talmidim and Melamdim. It may be a societal thing (the melamdim where guys who could hit hard), and I wonder what the halacha would be today with our rabbaim.February 11, 2015 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1065993
Why do you think it’s considered maalin?
The point with melamdim seems to be that it won’t cause more learning, as it does for talmidim.February 11, 2015 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1065994
DY: like mitpachos, it is physically closer to the sefer torah.March 3, 2015 11:58 am at 11:58 am #1065995FFBBT613Member
If anybody is curious for an update… we decided to go our separate ways. He’s not the person I once thought him to be. I’m not going to Seminary in E”Y, however I will be attending one in Lakewood/Brooklyn and attending Touro (IY”H- if I get accepted.)March 3, 2015 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1065996golferParticipant
FFB613, while one’s comments here in the CR are not a real indication of anything much about one’s true self, I still think what you just posted earns you high marks on character and menchlichkeit. So many posters (trolls?) start threads and disappear without a trace. Nice of you to provide the update. And look how you got all these people of different types and stripes to get involved!
Hope your future is full of good choices & great accomplishments!March 3, 2015 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1065997FFBBT613Member
Golfer- thanks so much:)March 4, 2015 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1065998Kollelwife123Participant
I’m not readings all the posts here bec they’re way too many but I will answer your question. I am a kollel wife who was originally being supported a small Amount but not enough to cover my rent. I had no degree yet since I got married early, and we decided that my husband would continue learning and I would put myself through school so that I would be able to earn a decent salary. It’s not easy and there are a lot of things that you need to consider. How long will your schooling be? (Ba/ma?)What kind of schedule will you have? Is it even possible to work while in school? What is your earning potentiAl look like? How long will he learn? Will he consider tutoring on the side? You need to decide what degree you are going for and what school as this will make a huge impact on weather u can work while in school. For us it was hard since I chose to do a program that would take me 4 years but would allow me a substantial income when done. It was tough as most of my schooling it was not possible to work so we took out loans for the bare minimum and managed. The questions is how much ur willing to sacrifice for this. Overall it is manageable but how hard it is depends on the standards you are living now and how much you will be able to earn while in school. I also saw you mentioned seminary while in school keep in mind you prob won’t be able to work with this arrangement.March 4, 2015 1:20 am at 1:20 am #1065999perspectivesMember
rabbeinu yonah writes the reason the leviim received 10% is because they needed to be supported in their learning.This was given by the other 11 shevatim in order that they be more comfortable than the rest of the population. (do the math.) He also writes very sharply in iggeres hateshuva that the only hope of those not fully immersed in torah is supporting torah learning to the “best” of ones ability. People in learning are poor to give the rest of us the only opportunity to tap into this highest life elixer, not that we should darshen to them to get a job, poor fools.March 4, 2015 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1066000OURtorahParticipant
FFBBT- I am so happy for you that you have come to these conclsuions yourself in your own time. I am inspirsed by you and your growth experiance. As someone who is a little older than you, but in a similar position (with parents who are more modern etc) I respect all the challenges you are going through. Keep strong and remember that everything you have done to get to the point you are at now is incredible and Hashem is so proud of you. Even though it seems as though you are going through a lot of hard times all at once, I know they will all iron out. It always does!
Thank you for the update and a freilichin purim to you! keep inspiring others around you!March 23, 2015 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1066001shulchanhashalemMember
Regarding Kedimos you have a contradiction in 249 between sif 15 and 16.
Also see the CC in Ahavas Chesed the 4th chapter ??? ?, where he says that giving your enemy that supersedes your own family because you get an extra Mitzva that way. You could ask but this is not brought down in the Shulchan Aruch, the answer is use your head not everything is there in the Shulchn Aruch.
As for where does kolllel and learning Torah stand see the sefer Torah Or by the Chofetz Chaim where he writes that the main Mitzva of Masser is for ?”?. Acctually here is the exact quote.
????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?’ ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ??”?…. Then he quotes a Gemara and a Rambam to this affect. He also adds that when you support a ?”? you get his ???? and with this you are ???? to ???? ???. I don’t think with any other ???? you can get such a reward.
Now, you can still give your city or relatives that are ?”? and get both rewards (or to children.)
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