June 20, 2023 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #2201558AviraDeArahParticipant
Sechel, one can and should enjoy this world to an extent, in order for it to be an assistance to him lefakayach daato, as the tanya writes about one who eats בשרא שמינא דתורא in order to have a clear head for learning. We have a guf and we learn better when that guf is taken care of. But it’s obviously not something to do all the time… avoidance of pleasures is something that is mentioned in the rambams shvil hazahav; one cannot be turned towards materialism, but neither should he go into asceticism.
Then there’s torah mitoch hadchak, which is another madrega.June 20, 2023 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #2201559☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Maybe the conmen earn more than honest people.
Seriously, cost of living is high, even on a simple level. Most families need two incomes. This was true 20 years ago as well, maybe less so 30-40 years ago.June 20, 2023 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #2201578anonymous JewParticipant
Sechel, it’s funny but you don’t mention the largest reason for the need for a second salary. Yeshiva tuition!!.
Thirty years ago, a close friend , a civil servant, applied for a reduction in tuition from a major litvish yeshiva. He was denied because his wife didn’t workJune 20, 2023 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #2201656sechel83Participant
ראה הלכות תלמוד תורה בשו”ע הרב
there is chiyuvim, midas chasidus, mesiras nefesh, hidurim, chumros etc.
i only posted the hayom yom cuz it was from today.June 20, 2023 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #2201710n0mesorahParticipant
Your argument seems to add up to that the working people should learning more. Both during their work and by taking off more.
Most Kolleliet do not learn enough today. Money is not the primary factor for people leaving kollel. Those that do, are unusually saintly yeshivaliet and yearn to be back in Beis Medrash the rest of their lives.
You seem to value making money much more than I do. Maybe that is the crux of our debate here.June 20, 2023 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #2201757
sechel> conmen practice was for the husband to work, and the wife to stay home,
My family still did that until kids grew up, and then my wife switched from stay-home to WFH.June 20, 2023 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #2201758
n0 > working people should learning more. Both during their work and by taking off more.
Sort of. I just would not call someone who learns and works a “working person”. He is a Talmid Chacham (if he is) who supports himself, or who does chesed and gets paid for it (that chesed may include to his wife so that she does not need to work, or to work that hard, or can buy herself a dishwasher or a second dishwasher or jewelry).
“During work” would be fine for builders and pub-owners but not for plumbers or lawyers.
Taking off more – this is where our society is not doing well. We have people working 80 or 0 hours a week, with no option in between. In part, this might be Americanization – goyishe Europeans work less and have longer vacations even without any Daas Torah. Maybe we need a part-timer movement. Recent trends in work-from-home are definitely helping – at least those who want to, but also creates new challenges: hope that nobody is billing clients and learning Mussar at the same time!June 20, 2023 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #2201760
anon > , it’s funny but you don’t mention the largest reason for the need for a second salary. Yeshiva tuition
this is true, but you can look for additional options. Wife can stay at home while kids are small, if she likes it; no need for “universal pre-k”, kids can chant alef-beis at home and with friends. Some parents are educated enough to teach some of the classes also. There are cheaper schools with inferior general education that you can supplement at home with online classes or full-fledged schools. Time you have with your kids is worth the effort.
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