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Starbucks, the biggest coffee-drinks retailer with thousands of chain stores around the world, is testing the addition of Super Kosher (Cholov Yisroel) dairy in 10 stores in New York and New Jersey, and they will use Pride of the Farm Milk, which is certified Cholov Yisroel by STAR-K, in a move to attract Jewish customers.
Starbucks, in an email, provided the location of the 10 stores where it is testing the kosher-certified milk:
316 Rockaway Turnpike, Cedarhurst, NY
1344 Broadway, Hewlett, NY
4701 Route 9 Space T1B, Howell NJ
2100 Highway, Oakhurst, NJ
1865 Route 70, Lakewood, NJ
2860 Lakewood RD, Toms River, NJ
1927 Flatbush Avenue, Brooklyn, NY
341 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, NY
166 7th Avenue, Brooklyn, NY
164 Park Place, Brooklyn, NY
How can one rely on them only using CY if there’s no hechsher?
And those stores equipment used non-CY until now.
What DY said.
Isn’t that the whole meaning of CY?
There is a Star-k hechshar on the shop and that is why they are using Star-k hechshar of Pride of the farm milk
Will these stores have a hecksher of some sort. Remember Starbucks also serves non-kosher products, so a treff restaurant adding Chalav yisrael is still treff.
that’s great!, usually if end up in starbucks, we would order coffee with Soy Milk.
DaasYochid – i use to ask them if i can see the bottle of soy etc… you can ask to see the milk.
Joseph – You Can ask them for “Cold Milk” which basically means they add the milk after without heating it up.
The CRC and Star-K have a whole write up about Starbucks coffee in general as they serve non-Kosher Meat and clean the pots and machine parts all in the same Washer which can be boleah.. check out the Star-K and Crc websites for the list and article
ZD, thank you for bringing this to our attention. I’m not shooting the messenger, just the message.
MA, akuperma, from the article ZD posted:
Ben Melech, if it’s a sealed container, that would work.
ZD, I think you bring up a good point that a large store has more to lose than a small one, but those who don’t drink cholov Stam don’t differentiate between large dairies and small ones.
I think if you’re contemplating how likely Starbucks is to switch the milk, think about how awkward it would be for Starbucks to tell all their customers that they’re out of milk, which is more likely to happen if they’re committed to only use one relatively small, independent brand.
?”? ??”? ??”? ?.
I think this is relevant to our shailah.
they could go to the local supermarket and get it if need be.
The treif ones might be closer, and what’s stopping the worker from refilling the CY container with CS milk?
The sign on Starbucks says, “All dairy in this store is STAR-K certified Pride of the Farm Cholov Yisrael Milk, Half & Half, & Whipping Cream”. This is a Starbucks sign, not a Kashrus certificate. (based on picture from TLS)
Nowhere does it say that STAR-K is “overseeing a milk initiative”. I think the big issue nowadays is that people are not educated. All they know is that “my minhag is to keep CY”. They don’t know what this means practically when it comes to things like using open bottles in uncertified areas. All they know is that this is their minhag and it makes them frummer and better than everyone else.
Is anyone actually certifying this, or is this just relying on Starbuck’s word? It sounds from that JP quote that R’ Holland from STAR-K is putting his name on this statement which could be misleading.
You can come up with a svara that Starbucks wouldn’t lie. That the employees would theoretically get fired if they were caught, etc. Of course, svaras are a dime a dozen. The whole point of CY is not to rely on those types of svaras. Even those who do rely on R’ Moshe’s chalav stam psak can’t make up their own svaras. They have to have someone knowledgeable in halacha who can tell them when the svaras apply and when they don’t.
The whole point of CY is not to rely on those types of svaras.
I disagree. The point of keeping CY is to not rely on one specific sevara, (and to be frummer and better than everyone else), not to reject the idea of sevaros.
A. If you see the fridge full of CY what’s the issue?
B. They would be sued like crazy if lied McDonald’s lost a major class action lawsuit and paid out millions
C. What matters is HALACHA AND EMES not frumkeit
How do they get Pride of the Farm milk in the New York metro area? Kreider Farm does not participate in the Milk Marketing Order that covers NYC.
And when did Pride of the Farm start producing Half & Half? I can’t find Pride of the Farm Half & Half on any Star-K lists.
H &H and Heavy cream are in the stores with the PoF label….
PoF label
That could stand for Pigs or Ferds.
If the bottle isn’t opened in front of you, you are relying on the word of people who have no halachic ne’emanus.
If they had open packages of meat, you wouldn’t eat it, so the issue is how seriously you take cholov Yisroel.
If you take it seriously, you won’t rely on them. If you think it’s a nice chumra, but it doesn’t really bother you if it’s cholov stam, I suppose it’s better than if you knew for sure that it was CS.
The Waitress replied OH ITS KOSHER
But was it, and how do you know?
ZD said:
“(I never mentioned kosher nor do I really look jewish) but the waitress knew exactly what I really wanted to know.
And these happend not in a paritcually jewish area either.
People know these things “
When they see someone with self control around free food, they know something is different. Who else cares about these things? Just us.
Here’s a ???? ??? which says that once the milking was supervised, the ??? becomes a regular ??? that it was switched, but not the more strict ???? of ??? ???”?. (It’s actually ???? in ????”? ??”?).
Ok. So there is still the chashash that it was switched. There is no supervision in Starbucks. If there was an open package of meat with a Kosher label, would you buy it there?
I once asked Reb C.D.Katz Satmer BP dyen about buying coffee on NJ17 in the summer when driving up and back from country.
He said if you see a open bottle Chulev Yisroel and there is NO other bottle in the fridge you can NOT use this milk as Chulev Yisroel because if the GOY ran out of CY milk he is nechshed that he switched Non CY for CY, but if you see plenty other closed bottles there is no need to be choyshed.
I believe the same applies here if you walk into a goyishe Starbucks and he has NO CY what stops him from buying chulev stam and pouring it into a CY bottle.
So I believe this is a Shalleh that needs a psak from some poskim in our days.
if you see a open bottle Chulev Yisroel and there is NO other bottle in the fridge
No other bottles of which type?
Either way, CY is more expensive, so why aren’t they nechshad anyhow?
At one of the gas stations on the way to the Catskills, I saw sealed small containers of CY milk for sale.
If there was an open package of meat with a Kosher label, would you buy it there?
To be fair, we are more machmir on d’rabbonons than on d’Oraisa.
http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=yd_x4376
Still, I think there’s a reasonable enough chashash that it might be switched for financial and/or logistic reasons that it would be a problem.
I don’t think the fear of getting caught in this situation is comparable to the seal required by the Shulchan Aruch.
You’re telling me to support Starbucks which has no hechsher rather than someplace with a hechsher?
I don’t like black coffee, but that’s beside the point.
I don’t think an establishment which makes overtures to the kosher consumer, which is nice, takes precedence over one which actually has a hechsher.
“If you think it’s a nice chumra, but it doesn’t really bother you if it’s cholov stam, I suppose it’s better than if you knew for sure that it was CS.”
I would think a major corporation has more ne-emanus that an individual.
You mean like Enron, Volkswagen, Lehman Brothers, etc.?
zahavasdad,
Companies caught doing such things pay a bigger price than what was saved.
This is not about being “caught”, and there would be no price paid whatsoever by Starbucks.
In the release you quoted, Starbucks labels this program a “service”, not a guarantee, promise, or even a policy. It’s no different than the “sugar in the raw” packets they provide as an alternative to the “regular” processed sugar packets for those who prefer natural foods. Unless they were guaranteeing cholov Yisroel milk, nobody would get in trouble if they switched it out, and they probably wouldn’t lose any business (this is an attempt to drum up business, not retain it). So I agree with DaasYochid. This is a very nice gesture on the part of Starbucks and a sign that they do research on their consumers, but it doesn’t really change the calculus as far as kashrus and CY go.
When non cows milk provides hersheys or breyers the same incentive to cheat as fudging emissions tests or hiding losses on bad investments did for those, I will retract my statement.
Who said anything about non cows milk or Hershey’s or Breyers? That’s a different discussion. We’re talking about CY in Starbucks in unsealed containers.
DY:
If the ch’shash is that it is other kosher milk, that doesn’t seem like such a serious ch’shash.
If you aren’t makpid on cholov Yisroel, it’s not a chashash at all, but that’s not who this new initiative is trying to serve.
It looks like they discontinued this program, at least when I went to the Toms River location, they said that they don’t have Cholov Yisroel anymore. Please confirm if this is true and if it applies to all locations of the above list…
btw it just turns our starbucks stopped carrying cholov yisroel like 3 weeks ago
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