June 9, 2016 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #617828
Starbucks, the biggest coffee-drinks retailer with thousands of chain stores around the world, is testing the addition of Super Kosher (Cholov Yisroel) dairy in 10 stores in New York and New Jersey, and they will use Pride of the Farm Milk, which is certified Cholov Yisroel by STAR-K, in a move to attract Jewish customers.
Starbucks, in an email, provided the location of the 10 stores where it is testing the kosher-certified milk:
316 Rockaway Turnpike, Cedarhurst, NY
1344 Broadway, Hewlett, NY
4701 Route 9 Space T1B, Howell NJ
2100 Highway, Oakhurst, NJ
1865 Route 70, Lakewood, NJ
2860 Lakewood RD, Toms River, NJ
1927 Flatbush Avenue, Brooklyn, NY
341 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, NY
166 7th Avenue, Brooklyn, NY
164 Park Place, Brooklyn, NYJune 9, 2016 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1155315
How can one rely on them only using CY if there’s no hechsher?June 9, 2016 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #1155316JosephParticipant
And those stores equipment used non-CY until now.June 9, 2016 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1155317
I dont like coffee and I am just passing the article along as many people love the place.
Its only the 10 stores listed no other stores, you will have to make the decision yourself.June 9, 2016 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1155318popa_bar_abbaParticipant
What DY said.
Isn’t that the whole meaning of CY?June 9, 2016 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1155319Mashiach AgentMember
There is a Star-k hechshar on the shop and that is why they are using Star-k hechshar of Pride of the farm milkJune 9, 2016 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1155320akupermaParticipant
Will these stores have a hecksher of some sort. Remember Starbucks also serves non-kosher products, so a treff restaurant adding Chalav yisrael is still treff.June 9, 2016 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1155321Ben MelechMember
that’s great!, usually if end up in starbucks, we would order coffee with Soy Milk.
DaasYochid – i use to ask them if i can see the bottle of soy etc… you can ask to see the milk.June 9, 2016 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1155322Ben MelechMember
Joseph – You Can ask them for “Cold Milk” which basically means they add the milk after without heating it up.
The CRC and Star-K have a whole write up about Starbucks coffee in general as they serve non-Kosher Meat and clean the pots and machine parts all in the same Washer which can be boleah.. check out the Star-K and Crc websites for the list and articleJune 9, 2016 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1155323
Ask your LOR if you wish to go.
I did not write the article, its around the internet.
I suppose you can ask to see the package of the milk and see the Pride of the Farm brandJune 9, 2016 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1155324
Its not clear to me, but it seems the Star-K is involvedJune 9, 2016 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1155325
ZD, thank you for bringing this to our attention. I’m not shooting the messenger, just the message.June 9, 2016 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1155326
MA, akuperma, from the article ZD posted:June 9, 2016 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1155327
Ben Melech, if it’s a sealed container, that would work.June 9, 2016 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1155328June 9, 2016 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1155329
I dont like coffee as I said before, but a bigger well known name has more of a reason not to decive the customers by doing things like switching the milks.
It is not in their business interest (Money is a big incentive) to do so.
Companies caught doing such things pay a bigger price than what was saved.
The local store does not have the same incentive and the money saved by using the cheaper milk is worth it to themJune 9, 2016 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1155330
ZD, I think you bring up a good point that a large store has more to lose than a small one, but those who don’t drink cholov Stam don’t differentiate between large dairies and small ones.
I think if you’re contemplating how likely Starbucks is to switch the milk, think about how awkward it would be for Starbucks to tell all their customers that they’re out of milk, which is more likely to happen if they’re committed to only use one relatively small, independent brand.June 9, 2016 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1155331
Its only 10 stores that are part of this test and they are in fairly frum areas. (I dont know where Oakhurst and Howell, NJ are) they could go to the local supermarket and get it if need be.
They are out to get customers , not alinate them and I would hope they have a backup what to do if they run out of milkJune 9, 2016 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1155332
?”? ??”? ??”? ?.
I think this is relevant to our shailah.June 9, 2016 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1155333
they could go to the local supermarket and get it if need be.
The treif ones might be closer, and what’s stopping the worker from refilling the CY container with CS milk?June 9, 2016 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #1155334
The treif ones might be closer, and what’s stopping the worker from refilling the CY container with CS milk?
He could get fired.
Starbucks is not a franchise, they are company owned and if company rules are a certain rule and they disobey they will get firedJune 9, 2016 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1155335YW Moderator-105ParticipantJune 9, 2016 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1155336YW Moderator-42Moderator
The sign on Starbucks says, “All dairy in this store is STAR-K certified Pride of the Farm Cholov Yisrael Milk, Half & Half, & Whipping Cream”. This is a Starbucks sign, not a Kashrus certificate. (based on picture from TLS)
Nowhere does it say that STAR-K is “overseeing a milk initiative”. I think the big issue nowadays is that people are not educated. All they know is that “my minhag is to keep CY”. They don’t know what this means practically when it comes to things like using open bottles in uncertified areas. All they know is that this is their minhag and it makes them frummer and better than everyone else.
Is anyone actually certifying this, or is this just relying on Starbuck’s word? It sounds from that JP quote that R’ Holland from STAR-K is putting his name on this statement which could be misleading.
You can come up with a svara that Starbucks wouldn’t lie. That the employees would theoretically get fired if they were caught, etc. Of course, svaras are a dime a dozen. The whole point of CY is not to rely on those types of svaras. Even those who do rely on R’ Moshe’s chalav stam psak can’t make up their own svaras. They have to have someone knowledgeable in halacha who can tell them when the svaras apply and when they don’t.June 9, 2016 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1155337
The whole point of CY is not to rely on those types of svaras.
I disagree. The point of keeping CY is to not rely on one specific sevara, (and to be frummer and better than everyone else), not to reject the idea of sevaros.June 9, 2016 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1155338koshervyosherParticipant
A. If you see the fridge full of CY what’s the issue?
B. They would be sued like crazy if lied McDonald’s lost a major class action lawsuit and paid out millions
C. What matters is HALACHA AND EMES not frumkeitJune 10, 2016 5:10 am at 5:10 am #1155339–Participant
How do they get Pride of the Farm milk in the New York metro area? Kreider Farm does not participate in the Milk Marketing Order that covers NYC.
And when did Pride of the Farm start producing Half & Half? I can’t find Pride of the Farm Half & Half on any Star-K lists.June 10, 2016 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1155340koshervyosherParticipant
H &H and Heavy cream are in the stores with the PoF label….June 10, 2016 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1155341
That could stand for Pigs or Ferds.
If the bottle isn’t opened in front of you, you are relying on the word of people who have no halachic ne’emanus.
If they had open packages of meat, you wouldn’t eat it, so the issue is how seriously you take cholov Yisroel.
If you take it seriously, you won’t rely on them. If you think it’s a nice chumra, but it doesn’t really bother you if it’s cholov stam, I suppose it’s better than if you knew for sure that it was CS.June 10, 2016 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1155342
Sometimes Ive been at a hotel with Free Breakfast and there is obviously food.
Ive gone to the waitress and asked to see the package. The Waitress replied OH ITS KOSHER (I never mentioned kosher nor do I really look jewish) but the waitress knew exactly what I really wanted to know.
And these happend not in a paritcually jewish area either.
People know these thingsJune 10, 2016 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1155343
The Waitress replied OH ITS KOSHER
But was it, and how do you know?June 10, 2016 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1155344
Yes it was, I didnt take her word for it and I looked
She also said that some other items that werent kosher and I looked at those too and they werent kosherJune 10, 2016 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1155345MDGParticipant
“(I never mentioned kosher nor do I really look jewish) but the waitress knew exactly what I really wanted to know.
And these happend not in a paritcually jewish area either.
People know these things “
When they see someone with self control around free food, they know something is different. Who else cares about these things? Just us.June 14, 2016 3:20 am at 3:20 am #1155346June 14, 2016 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1155347YW Moderator-42Moderator
Ok. So there is still the chashash that it was switched. There is no supervision in Starbucks. If there was an open package of meat with a Kosher label, would you buy it there?June 14, 2016 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1155348RebyosselParticipant
I once asked Reb C.D.Katz Satmer BP dyen about buying coffee on NJ17 in the summer when driving up and back from country.
He said if you see a open bottle Chulev Yisroel and there is NO other bottle in the fridge you can NOT use this milk as Chulev Yisroel because if the GOY ran out of CY milk he is nechshed that he switched Non CY for CY, but if you see plenty other closed bottles there is no need to be choyshed.
I believe the same applies here if you walk into a goyishe Starbucks and he has NO CY what stops him from buying chulev stam and pouring it into a CY bottle.
So I believe this is a Shalleh that needs a psak from some poskim in our days.June 15, 2016 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1155349
if you see a open bottle Chulev Yisroel and there is NO other bottle in the fridge
No other bottles of which type?
Either way, CY is more expensive, so why aren’t they nechshad anyhow?
At one of the gas stations on the way to the Catskills, I saw sealed small containers of CY milk for sale.June 15, 2016 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1155350
If there was an open package of meat with a Kosher label, would you buy it there?
To be fair, we are more machmir on d’rabbonons than on d’Oraisa.
Still, I think there’s a reasonable enough chashash that it might be switched for financial and/or logistic reasons that it would be a problem.
I don’t think the fear of getting caught in this situation is comparable to the seal required by the Shulchan Aruch.June 15, 2016 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1155351
Like I said before I dislike coffee immensely and I cant even stand the smell of it.
However for those who drink coffee, I do feel its very important to support those places who are willing to go the extra mile to service our needs. We need to let others know we are willing to support those businesses that will meet the needs of our community and perhaps encourage others to do so as wellJune 15, 2016 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #1155352
You’re telling me to support Starbucks which has no hechsher rather than someplace with a hechsher?June 15, 2016 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1155353
Support a Starbucks that is on the list, even if it means drinking black coffeeJune 15, 2016 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1155354
I don’t like black coffee, but that’s beside the point.
I don’t think an establishment which makes overtures to the kosher consumer, which is nice, takes precedence over one which actually has a hechsher.June 15, 2016 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #1155355apushatayidParticipant
“If you think it’s a nice chumra, but it doesn’t really bother you if it’s cholov stam, I suppose it’s better than if you knew for sure that it was CS.”
I would think a major corporation has more ne-emanus that an individual.June 15, 2016 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1155356
You mean like Enron, Volkswagen, Lehman Brothers, etc.?June 15, 2016 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1155357Avram in MDParticipant
Companies caught doing such things pay a bigger price than what was saved.
This is not about being “caught”, and there would be no price paid whatsoever by Starbucks.
In the release you quoted, Starbucks labels this program a “service”, not a guarantee, promise, or even a policy. It’s no different than the “sugar in the raw” packets they provide as an alternative to the “regular” processed sugar packets for those who prefer natural foods. Unless they were guaranteeing cholov Yisroel milk, nobody would get in trouble if they switched it out, and they probably wouldn’t lose any business (this is an attempt to drum up business, not retain it). So I agree with DaasYochid. This is a very nice gesture on the part of Starbucks and a sign that they do research on their consumers, but it doesn’t really change the calculus as far as kashrus and CY go.June 15, 2016 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1155359apushatayidParticipant
When non cows milk provides hersheys or breyers the same incentive to cheat as fudging emissions tests or hiding losses on bad investments did for those, I will retract my statement.June 15, 2016 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1155360
Who said anything about non cows milk or Hershey’s or Breyers? That’s a different discussion. We’re talking about CY in Starbucks in unsealed containers.June 15, 2016 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1155361popa_bar_abbaParticipant
If the ch’shash is that it is other kosher milk, that doesn’t seem like such a serious ch’shash.June 15, 2016 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #1155363
If you aren’t makpid on cholov Yisroel, it’s not a chashash at all, but that’s not who this new initiative is trying to serve.October 22, 2017 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1387939southsideParticipant
It looks like they discontinued this program, at least when I went to the Toms River location, they said that they don’t have Cholov Yisroel anymore. Please confirm if this is true and if it applies to all locations of the above list…October 22, 2017 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1387944a_trying_ben_torahParticipant
btw it just turns our starbucks stopped carrying cholov yisroel like 3 weeks ago
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