Kosher Cruise

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  • #1220085

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “So I found the full PDF of this online “How to Get Deeper Into Torah Without Going Off the Deep End,” by Friedman the Tutor.”

    Yes. It’s really good! Definitely something you should read.

    #1220086

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “By the same token, its probably forbidden to go to almost any hotel, especially a resort hotel.

    You might pass the pool area or see someone coming from pool”

    Okay, so if hotels are the same as cruise ships, then they are assur too. That doesn’t mean that cruise ships are mutter.

    Tachlis, for those of you who have been to both and would know – are hotels as bad as cruise ships?

    #1220087

    Meno
    Participant

    “I would have thought that a kosher cruise meant the whole ship. It sounds like that’s not the case. Is that correct?”

    These ships are generally huge, they hold thousands of people. There’s no way a kosher cruise could fill one up.

    #1220088

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    How do mashgichim give hashgachos for these cruises if they are treif?

    #1220090

    Meno
    Participant

    I think they have their own kitchen and dining room.

    #1220091

    lesschumras
    Participant

    The ship I was on had an auxillary kitchen that was kashered and supervised during the trip by machgichim. The ship was obviously not partitioned, although we had a separate dining area.

    How do so many frum people go to Miami Beach in the winter? Even if you don’t walk on the boardwalk, the streets are filled with women in skimpy outfits ( or so I’m told )

    #1220092

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “I think they have their own kitchen and dining room.’

    I didn’t mean the food – I meant the cruises are treif in other ways besides the food (according to what people are writing here). When mashgichim give hashgachos, is it only about the food? Do they look at other things as well and refuse to give hashgacha if there are other problems? Also, if there really are pritzus problems, how is it okay for the mashgichim to be on board?

    #1220093

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    It is the same as when a pesach program is granted limited rooms for a hotel or resort. They are not there to pasken for anything but the food and for Shabbos issues. As someone else stated above, going on a cruise is a choice. If you feel it is not appropriate don’t go.

    #1220095

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    OU Kosher Presents Top Consumer Questions

    “10. Q: Is it possible to obtain hot, kosher meals on a cruise ship?

    A: The only practical option for hot meals on a non-kosher cruise ship is to eat certified pre-packaged meals that are double wrapped, such as those found on airplanes. These may be heated in any oven as long as the seals are intact and the package remains closed. (There are other halachic concerns that arise on a cruise ship pertaining to Shabbat that have not been addressed here. Please ask your rabbi for guidance.)”

    – See more at: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/kashrus-corner/175798/ou-kosher-presents-top-consumer-questions-received-for-the-summer.html#sthash.chZ7GOqE.dpuf

    #1220096

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    All cruises offer kosher options (The Airline meals) , they do it to get more customers as long as you tell them in advance and they dont charge you any extra

    #1220097

    Joseph
    Participant

    Doing any aveira is a “choice”.

    #1220098

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph: Do you consider someone observing Pesach at a hotel also as an automatic “aveira?

    #1220099

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Joseph: Since I have never wanted to take a cruise, I never asked any questions about it. I can’t say whether there is more of an issue with a cruise, visiting Miami Beach (or Aruba, Puerto Rico, etc), or walking the streets of Manhattan mid-summer. While a person has the bechira to choose to do an aveira, I cannot state outright that going on a cruise is an outright aveira.

    But I do have a question for you: You have to fly somewhere for a business meeting. You board the plane and find yourself sitting next to women who are not dressed appropriately. Are you mechuyev to change your seat? Do you get off the plane?

    Many years ago, someone told me that I should not learn or say tehillim while on the subway due to women who are not dressed appropriately. I asked a poseik what I should do and he said: “If the choice is looking into a sefer or looking at the women, choose looking into the sefer.

    #1220100

    Joseph
    Participant

    lb: Are there people publicly roaming in their swimwear at the hotels?

    Yes. On their way to the pool.

    #1220101

    Joseph
    Participant

    iac: If going for parnassa there might be a heter that doesn’t exist when going for pleasure. And even then it depends on the extent of the situation. Is she dressed in swimwear or how a typical goyta dresses in the street?

    In either event, even if there’s a heter if it is possible to switch seats that is surely necessary.

    Regarding cruises, multiple participants have confirmed that even on the so-called “kosher” cruises one must bear witness to those roaming around in swimwear or close to that.

    #1220102

    Joseph
    Participant

    “Yes. On their way to the pool.”

    Then clearly it is assur to be there.

    #1220103

    Eli51
    Participant

    Going on a cruise is like going to the Las Vegas Strip even the Kosher Cruises. Therefore if you have to go on the cruise for Business there might be an heter if you stay in the kosher Area & your cabin the whole time unless you have to go the other area for business. However I don’t know anyone that went on a Cruise for Business. If people want to go on a cruise how about having a gevir rent out the whole boat & make a real kosher cruise?

    #1220104

    Meno
    Participant

    “If people want to go on a cruise how about having a gevir rent out the whole boat & make a real kosher cruise?”

    Now we’re talking. Anyone in the Coffee Room a gevir?

    #1220105

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Iacisrmma – Rav Moshe Feinstein has a teshuva about this. I am not sure if I ever saw it inside or only heard it quoted, and in any case it was a long time ago, so anyone who wants to know exactly what he said should look it up themselves (or ask DY to find it for you – he’s good at that).

    But, I am pretty sure that he says that if you need to ride the bus for parnassah, and there is no other way to get to work, and riding the bus involves sitting next to someone untzniusly dressed, then you are allowed to.

    I believe this is a clear-cut halacha based on Chazal. If someone has to pass by people who are untzniusly dressed, he is allowed to, but if he could have found another way to go, he is called a rasha.

    As far as I know this halacha applies to all of the above situations mentioned – cruises, hotels, walking down the streets of Manhattan, and even entering a bank where the tellers don’t dress tzniusly if one has the option of using the ATM or going to another bank where the tellers wear uniforms.

    Every person has to figure out for himself if he really has another option or not. Sometimes he doesn’t and sometimes he does.

    Sometimes, there really is another way to go, and the person does not realize it, but if he thought harder about it, he would realize this. I have a story about that, but I don’t have time now. Will try to post later, b”n.

    #1220106

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Eli51…..

    28YO daughter works in the private luxury Yachting industry. For only $475,000 per week you can charter her Yacht. It sleeps 10 guests. They only charge $10,000 extra per day for kosher food and wine/liquor

    #1220107

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The crusie ships are really big, You can sometimes see them in bayonne, NJ or Brooklyn. They hold thousands of people the kosher market isnt big enough for a totally kosher cruise.

    There is something called a riverboat crusie many times down the Danube, that are much smaller

    #1220108

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Zahavasdad………….

    Not all Cruise lines offer airline style kosher food, many do so but not from all ports. Imagine the horror of showing up for your first meal after the ship has left port and finding out the kosher food didn’t make it…it’s not like a flight that lets you off in less than 24 hours.

    There are two River cruise companies in the USA, but they do not offer kosher food options, as they cook and serve family style. We happen to be friends with the owners of both lines, one is based in CT and the other in RI.

    #1220109

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    The musicians, rabbis, cantors, and mashgichim are all there for business.

    #1220110

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LB -while it may be okay to pass a place where there are untzniusly dressed women in order to get to work, this sounds like a different type of situation to me.

    1. They are not just passing a place where there is pritzus; they are working in a place of pritzus.

    2. More importantly, they aren’t just working there; they are creating the place and encouraging others to be there. They are the ones who are making the “kosher cruise” for other Jews.

    I and “dan l’kaf zchus” that they must have asked a sheilah. I am just wondering how this works and why it’s okay. Even if it weren’t assur to be judgmental, I certainly don’t know enough to have an opinion on it. I just am curious as to how it works.

    I was surprised that there is a hashgacha because it sounds like they are encouraging others to sin. But maybe the reason for it is that they assume that most of these people would be going on the cruise anyhow, so it’s better that it be kosher and have kosher entertainment, and that it is why it is muttar for the musicians and masgichim to be there. In terms of themselves, it is parnassah as you said, and in terms of inciting others, they are actually preventing them from doing worse things.

    Also, I think that CT Lawyer said that cruises used to be different, so it’s possible that these things started when they weren’t a problem, and it just takes the oilam a while to realize that things have changed.

    #1220111

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    I wonder if the kosher cruise would also be a way of organizing the Jewish men to daven in a minyan while on vacation?

    If these same people would otherwise go on a non-kosher cruise or vacation, the men may miss out on at least davening in a minyan.

    Found this from the Lakewood Scoop:

    *Traveling to a Place without a Minyan*

    “In the summer months many people wish to plan vacations in remote locations which have no minyan, and the question arises if doing so is permitted. Davening with a minyan is an obligation, and not just a nice thing to do.[21]

    By not davening with a minyan one misses out on answering amen, kaddish, and risks his tefilla not being heard by Hashem.[22]

    Many poskim say one who is going to a remote location just for enjoyment may not go to a place that does not have a minyan. However, one may go to such a place for reasons of health, parnasa or for a mitzvah.[23]

    One should not rely on this heter without consulting his Rav.” (Lakewood Scoop)

    #1220112

    yehudayona
    Participant

    CTL, I couldn’t believe that there’s no riverboat cruise company based on the Mississippi, so I googled it. There’s the American Queen Steamboat Company in Memphis. Either this is a subsidiary of one of your friends’ New England based companies, or there are more than two river cruise companies in America.

    #1220113

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Ive been to the National Parks and Ive seen other frum people around, they are scattered so minyanim are not really possible. Plenty of frum people go there.

    Yellowstone National park is especiually large and difficult to arrange minyanim as people stay all over

    #1220114

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Parnassah opportunities also depend on one’s location.

    At least in the US, there is at least one state that I know of that relies solely on tourism for its economy.

    The majority of jobs for local residents are in the hotels, restaurants, cruise ships, and retail outlets that cater to a stream of worldwide visitors.

    Sometimes the choice is not to do an aveira but to survive or not survive.

    The rabbi may have to steer the person to the job that allows off on Shabbat, knowing that this person is lucky to have any job offer at all.

    Also being in a remote location may mean that one has less opportunities to collect tzadakah to feed one’s family.

    #1220115

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Even if you go to a place with a Chabad house and maybe a young Israel. Many of them do not have weekday minyanim as they cant get a Minyan. They can only get Minyanim on Shabbos and if they are able to get Shachris Mincha/Maarriv is still tougher

    #1220116

    lesschumras
    Participant

    ZD, that’s what companies like Touring Friends are for. They have great trips to Mount Rushmore, US national parks, New Mexico, California among other places

    They’re based in Far Rockaway. A caterer accompanies the tour bus and they have a specially written sefer Torah that is small enough to fit into an overhead compartment on a plane

    #1220117

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The problem with Kosher tours like that is that they are too expensive for me.

    I can only go to cool and interesting places if I go by myself and use hotel and airline points.

    I went to Italy for free (only had to pay for food and other incidentials like museum admissions and souveniers)

    #1220118

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    lesschumras: Thanks for the info! 🙂

    #1220119

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Yehudayona…………

    The American Queen Co is the latest reincarnation of the old Delta Queen Co. It has closed down and gone bankrupt repeated times under different ownership. Their biggest problem is that their main boat doesn’t meet current Safety requirements and gets temporary certificates to operate.

    Since they have cancelled their seasons so often in the past 10 years I didn’t bother to mention them.

    The New England owned lines (who operate throughout the US, Canada and Carribean) American Cruise Lines and Blount Small Ship Adventures. Neither can accommodate kosher guests and special meal prep.

    #1220120

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Question question question… Even if the boat was 100% kosher. So kosher that only righteous frum men went on the cruise, worked on the cruise, and prayed on the cruise and it was a temporary kollel that filled in when a real-land kollel flooded.

    After the real-land kollel was restored and the righteous frum men were permitted to return to their kollel, a few men wanted to daven an extra day or two at sea.

    Shabbos, their families, and any other normal responsibilities would not be affected by their extra time on the cruise ship.

    ***The issue is that when this ship is at sea, it discharges all their waste into the ocean without restrictions. It’s far enough away from land to disregard any legislative concern for the environment, and so it does.

    Is it permissible for the talmudim to be on board on such a vessel without the need and for only amusement or the joy of learning in a new setting, when it comes at the expense of such needless pollution?

    #1220121

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Lightbrite

    “The issue is that when this ship is at sea, it discharges all their waste into the ocean without restrictions. It’s far enough away from land to disregard any legislative concern for the environment, and so it does.”

    When it returns to port and has no waste to be offloaded for legal disposal the captain may find himself under arrest, the shipowner fined and the ship possibly seized.

    There are international treaties, laws and agreements for dealing with waste disposal at sea. When a ship docks, the sewage holding tanks are emptied via sewer connections or into tanker trucks. Solid waste is carted away by commercial haulers and disposed of in a legally permitted manner.

    #1220122

    Meno
    Participant

    “Is it permissible for the talmudim to be on board on such a vessel without the need and for only amusement or the joy of learning in a new setting, when it comes at the expense of such needless pollution?”

    So you’re basically asking if we have a halachic obligation to avoid polluting the environment?

    #1220123

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    A Jew is not allowed to do something for no purpose, so they would only be allowed to board the ship in the first place if there were a purpose – such as attaining the menuchas hanefesh (peace of mind) and simchas hachaim (joy in life) needed to be ovdei Hashem and to be able to learn b’hasmada (with diligence).

    If their boarding as a purpose for their avodas Hashem, that would override any pollution concerns (assuming they are doing nothing that is illegal or unusual).

    #1220124

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    It’s our responsibility to also be mindful and conscientious about protecting the environment as best we can in this world.

    “The environmental issues with cruise ships are

    Carbon emissions

    Diesel particles

    Waste and rubbish

    Damage to reefs and ecosystems

    “In addition to airborne pollution cruise ships also produce a great deal of waste and rubbish.

    It is estimated that every passenger produces 3.5 kilograms of rubbish daily as opposed to 0.8 kilograms generated by people on shore.

    A typical cruise ship with 3000 passengers will also generate 30,000 gallons of human waste and 255,000 gallons of grey water a day.

    In addition there can be 15 gallons of toxic waste and 37,000 gallons of oily bilge water produced every day.

    Although cruise ships are required to have onboard waste treatment systems, they can lawfully release black water anywhere beyond three miles from the shore (except in certain areas of Alaska).

    Grey water (from washing up, laundry etc) can be discharged into the sea almost anywhere. Ships also produce vast amounts of ballast water containing diseases, pathogens and invasive species which is often discharged into fragile ecosystems.

    Cruise ships are also accused of damaging reefs. According to Ocean Planet, there are 109 countries with coral reefs, in 90 of which coral reefs have been damaged by anchors and sewage.” (Tourism Concern)

    #1220125

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    There is also a Cruise Ship Report Card found at the FOE (Friends of the Earth) website so that anyone taking a cruise for Hashem purposes can do the histadlus to take the cruise ship that does the least harm to the environment.

    Other websites may have more information on how the cruise ship workers are treated and compensated.

    #1220126

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    It looks like fun.

    Side note::: A while ago a random person told me that she doesn’t ever want to travel to Europe because planes use so much fuel. She said that she felt bad that American soldiers are fighting on foreign land, and dying on foreign land, just for us to have fuel. Driving a car was enough for her.

    By deciding not to travel on planes, especially internationally, she said that she was doing her part in helping the soldiers come home.

    Um…. yea. For some reason I don’t think it really works that way.

    When it comes to businesses, I think that the demands that you make in purchasing their products or services makes a bigger difference than opting out.

    Or if you do opt out, putting your money elsewhere may give the companies a clue on how to better tailor their supply to your demands.

    #1220127

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    According to Rav Avigdor Miller, Global warming is a liberal Farce and not to be belived

    #1220128

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Sewage in our waters is very real.

    Also is a great way to get MRSA.

    And salmonella in our food supplies.

    Tell fishermen to stop complaining and sell those invisible fish already.

    #1220129

    Meno
    Participant

    “It’s our responsibility to also be mindful and conscientious about protecting the environment as best we can in this world.”

    Source?

    #1220130

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    List of sources from Chabad online:

    “2. Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 67b. For more on bal tashchit of energy, and an explanation of this source, see the Jewcology article on energy.

    3. Mishna Torah, Laws of Kings 6:10.

    4. Sifrei (a halachic Midrash), end of Parshat Shoftim.

    5. Birkat Hashem (Jerusalem, 2000), p. 211. He cites the views of Rabbi Shmuel Heller in Kuntres Kevod Melachim

    7. Orach Meisharim 29:6. Orach Meisharim was posthumously reprinted in 1970. Rabbi Poleyeff was a rosh yeshivah at the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary at Yeshiva University.

    8. Written response to questions on bal tashchit submitted by the author, Spring 2005.

    9. Sefer HaChinuch: The Book of [Mitzvah] Education, evidently by Rabbi Pinchas haLevi of Barcelona, translated by Charles Wengrov (Jerusalem: Feldheim, 1989), vol. 5, p. 145.

    10. Commentary to Deuteronomy 20:19.

    11. Horeb, sections 397, 398.”

    #1220131

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Bal tashchit

    “When you besiege a city for many days to wage war against it to capture it, you shall not destroy its trees by wielding an ax against them, for you may eat from them, but you shall not cut them down.

    Is the tree of the field a man, to go into the siege before you?

    However, a tree you know is not a food tree, you may destroy and cut down, and you shall build bulwarks against the city that makes war with you, until its submission.

    Pasted from Rabbi Yonatan Neril’s article on Chabad dot org.

    #1220132

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    “Needless Destruction

    The general prohibition against needless destruction, derived from the verse on fruit trees, concerns not destroying directly or indirectly anything that may be of use to people.

    It applies to wasting energy, clothing, water, money, and more.

    According to the Talmud, this prohibition includes wastefully burning oil or fuel.2

    Many rishonim (commentators between c. 1000 and 1500 CE) conclude that wasting any resources of benefit to humans is a Torah prohibition.

    The Talmudic sage Rabbi Yishmael makes another logical inference: if the Torah warns us not to destroy fruit trees, then we should be even more careful about not destroying the fruit itself.4

    Currently, in Israel, Rabbi Moshe Yitzhak Forehand notes that all rabbinic authorities agree, based on this teaching, that it is forbidden from the Torah to destroy edible fruit.5

    This applies to all food that is fit to be eaten, and not only the fruit of trees.6″ (Neril on Chabad).

    #1220133

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    The article mentions that yes there are several exceptions but overall there doesn’t seem to be any support that Torah permits us to damage the environment without care, assuming that the Moshiach will come clean it up or come soon enough that it doesn’t matter what we expose our children too*.

    *Not saying that you or anyone here said that….IRL someone told me that it doesn’t matter because Moshiach is coming anyway. Mentioning it just in case anyone wants to bring that up.

    *Judaism and Environmentalism: Bal Tashchit*

    Observance of a mitzvah, like tearing clothes in mourning, or preservation of human life or health, overrules bal tashchit when the two come into conflict.

    That said, the Jewish sages reveal a high degree of sensitivity when it comes to waste.

    Quite a level to which to aspire.” (Neril on Chabad).

    Thank you

    #1220134

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Wait there’s more in the Torah:

    #1220136

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    ***”Two thousand years ago the Talmud (particularly Baba Batra chap.2) extensively covers the regulation against atmospheric, water and even noise pollution, and arising from Deuteronomy (23:12) issues of waste disposal.”***

    From Aish by R. Yossi Ives.

    #1220137

    Meno
    Participant

    There’s a big difference between throwing food in the garbage (which is what most of your sources are referring to), and dumping waste in the middle of the ocean.

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