Ksuba question

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  • #606887

    besalel
    Participant

    When a yeshiva bochur stands on the night of his wedding under the heiglige chuppa with the shchina by his side and signs a document which declares as follows:

    ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????

    ?????? ??????? ????? ???????? ???????

    and further he states he will supply

    ???????? ???????? ????????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????

    is he lying to his kallah?

    After all, the yeshiva bochir has no intention whatsoever to support his kallah. he has no plans whatsoever to feed her or sustain her. quite the opposite, he demands that she or her father does that for him. so at this most special moment in the yeshiva bochur’s life is he a shakrin? do yeshiva bochirs have a different ksuba that says the opposite, that she will support me and feed me and sustain me?

    #910084

    farrocks
    Member

    No, since the wife willingly and lovingly agrees to forgo that in honor of his Torah study – which she receives equal credit for.

    And, of course, she has every right to forgo what is coming to her. And she should be highly commended for forgoing mere olam hazeh in pursuit of olam haboah.

    #910085

    more_2
    Member

    By you learning you are supporting her not only financially but spiritually taking care of her.

    #910086

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Yeshiva boychir knows that since Maase Yadeha Shelo, he is Yotze his Tzuzag by allowing her to use some of her income for herself.

    #910087

    besalel
    Participant

    farrocks and more 2: thats fine and dandy but that is not what he says under the chuppa. his ksuba should say exactly what you wrote and not the opposite. instead of promising you support his ksuba should say “you or your father promise to support and i promise to give you the zchus of learning.” instead, he stands there and lies.

    Haleivi: maase yedah shelo only if he supports her, if he does not she can say i dont want your support and i keep my wages. i guess yeshiva boys cant learn either.

    #910088

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    he demands that she or her father does that for him.

    there’s your answer

    #910089

    shmoel
    Member

    He makes a binding promise and she agrees to waive his obligation while he is still in Yeshiva. It is a perfect, truthfuk and beautiful arrangement. He is obligated and took the binding commitment under tha chupa. And she excercised her right to waive what she’s entitled to. He still has the obligation and she can stop waiving it.

    #910090

    shlishi
    Member

    and she can stop waiving it.

    That depends on what they agreed to in advance. If she agreed that he can learn for 7 years, 5 years in she can’t renege as she already agreed to a longer period.

    #910091

    Ðash®
    Participant

    While he has a financial obligation to support her, Halacha does not compel someone with a financial obligation (other than a theif) to work in order to raise such funds.

    #910092

    JustHavingFun
    Participant

    When a yeshiva bochur stands on the night of his wedding under the heiglige chuppa with the shchina by his side and signs a document …

      He

    signs nothing! The eidim sign!! (So if he doesn’t support her, do the eidim come and break his kneecaps?)

    #910093

    Health
    Participant

    besalel -Your post reeks of the Anti-Kollel Chevra. While I don’t think Kollel is for e/o – Chazal say 10 Batlanim in a town. Your posts insinuates there should be none because e/o writes a Kesuba. You must know more than them.

    And btw, there is an obligation for a woman to work -Battala Mavi Leiday Sheemum. This isn’t a voluntary thing, it’s a Chiyuv. Some women think they don’t have to.

    And it’s a Shaila in the Gemmora if a woman can say -I’ll keep my Maasey Yodayim and I won’t take your Mezonos. I think we Pasken that she can’t say this against the husband’s will.

    #910094

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Besalel,

    What is your point? should klal yisroel not have any kolelim?

    #910097

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    maase yedah shelo only if he supports her, if he does not she can say i dont want your support and i keep my wages. i guess yeshiva boys cant learn either.

    Yes, she can say that. In which case he also is not required to support her anymore. So that means they are fulfilling the obligations.

    Now what.

    #910099

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I had this discussion with a friend of mine a while back. The husband is required to support his wife. If she wants to forgo that support, she’s allowed to.

    It would make a difference if she changes her mind. If we’d write that she’ll support him, it’s too bad – she accepted that she’d be providing the support.

    If we continue to write that he provides the support, and she allows him to learn in kollel, she can change her mind. If he refuses to go work and support her, she can go to Beis Din and demand that her husband fulfill his terms in the kesubah. If he still refuses, she can demand a divorce.

    #910100

    akuperma
    Participant

    One can argue that the language of a kesuba is “boilerplate” (that’s legalese for formal language that is used in documents routinely, and has to be interpreted based on judicial precedents external to the documents, and often contradicting the plain meaning). To understand the halacha governing a married couple you should look at how rabbanim have been interpreting the law over the centuries, rather than attempting to interpret the language of the kesubah as if you were the first person to look at it.

    #910101

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I had this discussion with a rebbi in my high school once. Our conclusion was that she temporarily releases him from the obligation, and can change her mind at any time. We don’t write that in the kesuba because today the kesuba is basically a liturgical document and we don’t change the standard nusach based on circumstances. For example many second marriages have ketubot for 200 zuz.

    #910102

    old man
    Participant

    For a good analysis of how the ksuva was interpreted in the middle ages, please read Prof. A. Grossman’s book Chasidot U’Mordot. Zalman Shazar Press, Jerusalem 5763

    #910103

    besalel
    Participant

    akuperma, you raise another issue. in those communities that the chossin does not sign the ksuba, the witness are declaring that the chossin acknowledged all the facts that are are stated there when in fact the chassin did no such thing and may not even know what it says there. Now the witnesses are liars too. As eidin zommimim they should be responsible for supporting her.

    #910104

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Besalel,

    this comment of yours “As eidin zommimim” indicates your level of halachik knowledge. It is obvious to all that it extends in many directions.

    Eidim zomimim. Hah. Just looking for a good eidim.

    #910105

    uneeq
    Member

    besalel- My response?

    About the chosson- Shtika Ke’Hoda’a.

    About you- syag l’chochma shtika.

    #910106

    twisted
    Participant

    Health, there is a reason Chazal called them the ten batlonim, ie, they were mevatel from their ordinary livelyhoods and were supported by the community to level what they were mevatel. Yours truly, a Zvulun struggling not to be an am ho’oretz.

    #910107

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    besalel: Do you know what eidim zommimim are? There’s a difference between eidim zommimim and eidei sheker.

    #910108

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Maybe if he’s not a Yeshiva Bochur he won’t know what the kesuba says.

    #910109

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Twisted, this was more common than you would like to think. The job of Asara Batlanim was to be there for a Minyan. B’nei Hayeshiva, who were supported by the Yeshiva’s garden, were away from home for long stretches of time. Do you want to institute that, while the families subsist on ??? ??????

    Actually, the whole premise here is silly. Yes, it is his Achrayus to make sure there is money. If there is none, he will have to go make money. Until that point, ??? ???? ?? ??????? ???”? ??? ??????? ???”?.

    #910111

    Toi
    Participant

    “When a yeshiva bochur stands…”

    And your agenda has been stated. Cant you find anythinf better to do w/ your life? Maybe post a yummy blueberry pie recipe my wife can make for me.

    #910112

    WIY
    Member

    Toi

    Usually the people who have issues with kollel families are the people who cant learn or never got into learning, or couldnt find a girl who would support them so they are bitter. I think there are very few people who have an issue who come from a purely ideological standpoint. Its mostly personal bias.

    #910113

    Health
    Participant

    WIY -“Its mostly personal bias.”

    True, but you should still answer him up logically.

    #910114

    Josh31
    Participant

    The big question is whether the guy is in Kollel because he had the learning capabilities and his heart lifted him to this intense service of Hashem. Or is he in Kollel to fulfill his family and community’s expectations.

    You should also ask this question of any professional you rely upon, such as your Doctor.

    No profession can survive an influx of ill suited or ill motivated candidates.

    #910115

    just my hapence
    Participant

    WIY – Sorry, I both love learning and am very capable of doing it and yet I still have an issue with what I call the ‘kollel assumption’, i.e. that every boy must start married life in kollel. I am all for those who are really serious about their learning, and I mean really serious, to spend as long as they can in kollel but I also believe that there are painfully few of those around. Most people seem to think it’s just part of a some kind of school system. They do it because they were put on the conveyor belt in kindergarten and they just keep on the conveyor belt. My mashgiach once told me that nowadays you can put a broomstick in kindergarten and in 20 years it will be in kollel. People go to kollel because that’s just what people do. I know you will probably put me down as one of the “very few people who have an issue who come from a purely ideological standpoint” but I know many people, Roshei Yeshiva, Mashgichim, Maggidei Shiur included, who feel the same way.

    As regards the OP, I believe that masechtos kesubos (perek 6 mostly) and makos should help him understand the kesuba and idim zomemim sugyos a bit more than he seems to…

    #910116

    oomis
    Participant

    No, since the wife willingly and lovingly agrees to forgo that in honor of his Torah study – which she receives equal credit for.”

    A woman may agree to whatever she chooses, but the loshon of the kesubah is not acknowledging that choice. So from that specific standpoint,I agree that the chosson is not being truthful l’chatchilah as PER the kesubah. I think this is something that should be written in and signed by th kallah, so it is there in black and white that she is maskima to this. BTW, why do we suppose the mechabrim of the present-day kesubah did NOT feel compelled to add that disclaimer in? Could they perhaps not have been proponents of married life that made the demand upon the wife to provide financial support?

    #910117

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Because the Mechabrim of “the present-day kesubah” understood that the women barely leave the house, so obviously they had no choice to learn while she works.

    Do you think Rabbi Akiva had a different kesubah?

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