Kula-ization of Judaism.

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  • #611960

    DASH2
    Member

    There are numerous basic halachois in th poiskim which are basically ignored, at least where i come from.

    1) OIVER LIFNEI HAMISPALLEL. For some reason many peole simply ignore this poshute halacho in shulchan Oruch.

    2) drying one’s hand on a towel during shabbos, without wringng the first. The shulchan oruch at the end of siman 302 writes clearly that this is forbidden – he considers it a de;oyraysa of kibbus

    3) Photo’s Numerous rishoinim hold that printing or producing photos of a face is included in ?? ????? ???? ??2 ??? ???? ??, ????”? ??’ ???”? ???”? Why has judaism bacome so kuladig and watered down?

    #1009734

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There are reasonable heteirim for all three (at least in some cases).

    #1 is your best tayna, but I think I don’t understand what #2 is referring to. Wiping hands is derech lichluch and muttar, but wringing the towel is assur.

    #1009735

    Sam2
    Participant

    #1. See Ishei Yisrael (I’ve quoted the precise Marek Makom here before, I don’t remember where off the top of my head).

    #2. See DY’s post

    #3. Rov Rishonim and the Shulchan Aruch (I think) Pasken that if it’s not Bolet it’s not an issue.

    #1009736

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    #3- Not bolet is an open Rambam and the Raavad is the only one I know of who disagrees. Also, ?? ?????

    #1009737

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DASH2:see the erudite answers by all posters. Where you see an increase of “kulos’ I see the totslly opposite. the use of outlandish chumors that were never accepted in Europe. (men and wmen on opposite sides of the street? checking water for microscopic bacteria? Washing strawberries withv detergent?)

    So, it is obviously in the eyes of the beholder.

    #1009738

    DASH2
    Member

    ROB, the things you mention are not new chumras, they are simply the way we keep old ones. Eating insects has always been forbidden.

    The mechaber clearly forbids drying one’s hands without wringing them offf first. The sevoro of derch lichluch is a tur, and is negged most rishoinim, additinally it may no longer apply as our water is sanitized and clean.

    Concerning the pictures – producing a 2d picture remains ossur according to numerous rishoinim, so it amazes me that all those who are makpid on other basic things like Rabbeinu tam z’man etc.. are not makpid on this.

    All three cases i gave are cases where MOST peole are simple not aware of the halacha.

    #1009739

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB, nobody checks for microscopic bacteria. The copepods in NYC water are nireh l’einaim. I’ve seen them. Water having toloim issues is not new. There are teshuvos written about it from hundreds of years ago, as well as teshuvos about vegetable infestation.

    The bugs in strawberries, which are also visible, stick to the berry unless soap is applied. Where you see outlandish chumros, I see lack of awareness in your part.

    #1009740

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYOchid and Dash2: My point is simple. Nowhere do you find in acharonim that one has to go to outlandish ways (for example, washing with detergent) to avoid certain problems. Soap has been around for millenia and so have strawberries been around for a very long time. Is there any acharon (apart from very recent days) that says you should wash them in soap? Of course, “toloim” are ossur but I have looked at thousands of strawberries and never seen any, certainly after rinsing them in water. Maybe you have better eyesight. Ironically, Even I have succumbed to these new chumros by cutting off the tops but soap? As far as water in New York, I am sure you know that this chumro was not accepted by the vast majority of Rabbonim.

    I also gaurantee you that in Russia,Poland and everywhere in Europe, water was a lot less clean than in New York. Yet do you find anywhere a chumro of filtering water?

    We are not “malachei Hashores” and we do not have to use microscopes, so a lot of these chumros have arrived because science has given us the capability of “seeing” more than our eyes. In truth, “ein ledovor sof’ because bacteria is everywhere, in ther air, in our food. We are responsible for stuff we see normally, not through one thousand maginifying microscope.

    As far as ths other questions- I only have to refer you to the machlokes (especially in israel) about separate buses, back of the bus seating and, to the extreme chumroh of having separate cemeteries for men and women! Outlandish chumors, never found in Poskim.

    By the way, your question about towels is not relevant today. In the mechaber’s time, they did not have the kind of towels we have today,just smooth towels (more like dish towels) and these could easily get soaking wet from drying the hands. Today’s towels (for the last 150 years or so) have looped fibers and absorb the water between these fibers,. They never get wet and certainly not soaking wet from drying hands.

    #1009741

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY:

    1: Clean strawberry with soap

    2: Place strawberry on black garbage bag

    3: Smash strawberry with hammer

    4: Watch little white dots scurry out of smashed strawberry

    5: Are you sure you want to eat a strawberry?

    P.S. Rabbi Vaye (Bedikas HaMazon) suggests either cooking/blending (after washing with soap 3 times) or peeling strawberries. Otherwise he says not to eat them.

    #1009742

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    GAW: have you done that?

    #1009743

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    GAW, I’ll have to try that. I haven’t actually had fresh strawberries in a long time, but I have a couple of friends in kashrus who say it’s possible to clean them.

    Raspberries, I’m told, can’t be cleaned.

    #1009744

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB, in the places that had bug free water, they indeed did not filter their water. I don’t know what you mean by the vast majority of rabbonim, but R: Dovid Feinstein assers, and in my experience, his psak was widely accepted.

    Did they even have strawberries in Europe a hundred years ago?

    #1009745

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Did they even have strawberries in Europe a hundred years ago?”

    Yes, the modern strawberry originated in Europe about 250 years ago (selectively bred from Chilean strawberries).

    #1009746

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Gaw : you do know , don’t you, that those little creatures would be mutter as long as they stay inside the strawberry and never come out what your friend did to find those imaginary creatures compounded the issue.

    #1009747

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Charlie, thank you. I should have phrased my question differently, though; what I meant to ask was if they were common enough to warrant discussion in the poskim.

    There is also more, and different, infestation now (partly due to the importing/exporting of produce together with their bugs) than there was then.

    #1009748

    yytz
    Participant

    I think that until recently, there were no detailed rules on how to check for bugs — you were just supposed to look and wash using common sense. An interesting paragraph on this issue from an essay by Rabbi Ari Enkin:

    [such food]

    #1009749

    oomis
    Participant

    “Eating insects has always been forbidden”

    Because that is not a chumrah, it is the HALACHA! Chumros are typically way above and beyond what the halacha requires, and the only danger in them is when the chumrah BECOMES the halacha, and people unfavorably judge others who do not subscribe to that particular chumrah.

    And now, after all this discussion, I cannot drink water or eat strawberries, because I believe I will vomit, even though I have never personally seen any tolaim. I once saw a video on strawberry infestation – ugh. I have never seen what came out of those strawberries on any strawberry I ever bought.

    #1009750

    yehudayona
    Participant

    My personal experience with raspberries match what DaasYochid says. I used to grow raspberries in my garden, and I found that they had worms that looked identical to the little white hairs that are part of the berries.

    #1009751

    mdd
    Member

    Da’as Yochid, what’s the heter to walk in front of a person who davens?

    #1009752

    mdd
    Member

    DY, they did have strawberries in Europe 100 years ago. Not bananas though.

    #1009753

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mdd, the Ishei Yisroel referenced earlier by Sam2 is in Perek 29, halachos 14-15. He brings sources (Eshel Avraham – Butchatch and others) who are mattir when someone is standing in a place designated for entry to the shul (e.g. right at the door). He also says it’s muttar to pass someone in order to use the restroom, not to violate bal t’shaktsu.

    #1009754

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB, if you think infestation, and the need to check very carefully, is a new chumrah, please check out Chochmas Odom 38: 15-20 who lists a large number of vegetables and fruit which are problematic. “????? ????? ???? ????.”

    You can also go back to Meiri (Chullin 67a) for an example of the issue brought up in Rishonim.

    Also, why do you assume that the worms in strawberries are ????? ?????? Even a safek would be assur.

    #1009755

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    GAW, I did some research (not hands on, though) and you are correct that the white worms are not as easy to clean with soap. The question is if after cleaning them, it’s still a miut hamatzui, and even if not, whether that helps (although the kashrus agencies seem to hold so, I don’t think it’s so pashut, ??”?).

    #1009757

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: There’s no Chiyuv to check anything that’s less than a Miut Hamatzui. That is clear. Why do you think it’s not Pashut?

    #1009758

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Because it started as a miut hamatzui. If it started as a miut she’eno matzui, it would be pashut, as you say.

    #1009759

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Ashrecha DaasYochid that you are willing to look into this serious Chashash. This (Tolaim) is Gufo Shel Torah.

    P.S. I did not do so myself, but it was reported to me first hand by a Machgiach who is a good friend of mine (who thereby convinced me to avoid strawberries).

    I also respectfully request that the mods allow the following link, which gives Rav Moshe Vaye’s guidelines for checking:

    Almonds

    The list of items is on the left. Also be aware that the chiyuv to check depends on location, that is also noted there.

    #1009760

    Brony
    Participant

    “Wringing”

    You Keep Using That Word. I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.

    #1009761

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: our understanding of “checking carefully’ is obviously quite different. (You mentioned the Chochmas odom). No one is arguing with checking vegetables and some fruits for obvious infestation. My argument is with the extravagant requirement that you ask for today. Washing with detergent? Filtering perfectly clean drinking water (that comes filtered,by the way)? And other outlandish ways. Again, we are not “malachei Hashores”. It is sensible to rinse, even rinse very carefully, vegetables and fruits. But soap? they had some very strong cleansers in antiquity, yet no ancient Possek requires to scour fruit so as to remove whatever creature may be there.

    Water was way dirtier in previous centuries and all vegetables were infested to a much greater degree. Today, pesticides and other preventive ways have, by and large, removed bugs and obvious insects. If you want to be “machmir’, at least be practical. As I said, even I cut off the top of the strawberries that are said ( I never checked) to contain small insects. If you truly believe that New York water contains insects that are ossur, install a commercial filter. In other words, doing something sensible is certainly enough to be “yotzei’ the obligation of checking.

    #1009762

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I checked a big bushel of parsley last night, the way the star-k says to.

    First I soaked it in soapy water. Then I rinsed it. Then I agitated it in a bowl of clean water and pulled it out. I checked the water and it was clean.

    But I had only stuck the front in, not the stems. So I agitated the stems in the water.

    I checked it, it was clean.

    Wait, what is that little thing I can barely see floating in the water. Lemme grab it. Missed. Where did it go? Who knows. Lemme look again. Need more light. There it is. Missed again. There it is. Ok, got it on my nail.

    What is this thing? Who knows. I need a magnifying glass. I don’t have one. Lemme put it up to my eye. Still can’t see. Hmmm.

    I know, I know! It must be a bug! A thrip! (because thrips live in parsley). Assur gamur! lol!

    Oh, it’s drying off. And shaking water off it’s tiny body. And starting to crawl around on my nail. Hey wife, look at this tiny bug on my nail crawling around. Eeeew Popa, get rid of it! Ok.

    So I put it back in more soapy water, and agitate, and wash, and agitate, and wash, etc. And then try again. This time really actually clean.

    And put it in the soup.

    #1009763

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin – NYC water is not filtered (although clorine & florine may be added). See the NYC.GOV website for more details.

    #1009764

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Then I agitated it

    seems the parsley and I have a lot in common

    #1009765

    charliehall
    Participant

    “I need a magnifying glass.”

    Magnifying glasses did not exist in talmudic times.

    #1009766

    MDG
    Participant

    “I checked a big bushel of parsley last night, the way the star-k says to.

    First I soaked it in soapy water. Then I rinsed it. Then I agitated it in a bowl of clean water and pulled it out. I checked the water and it was clean.”

    I don’t have such patience. I buy dried.

    #1009767

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Magnifying glasses did not exist in talmudic times.

    Yes, but bugs did. And as the story continues, it started crawling.

    #1009768

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you truly believe that New York water contains insects that are ossur, install a commercial filter.

    That’s what I did. What did you think I did?

    #1009769

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Popabarabba; you miss charliehall’s point. According to your logic, why stop at a magnifying glass? how about a microscope? Or how about a nuclear powered microscope? You will see many,many organisms when you use such extreme methods. The fact is that the Torah did not intend to ‘asser’ anything that is not “nireh le’eyaynim”.Our skin crawls with bacteria and so is fermenting wine, yeasts, etc. virtually everything in the world. So, we shoulf stop eating anything and everything?

    We are human beings and ,as such, we have to give it the attention that we can give it, as per normal day-t-day methods. Not magnifying glasses, not microscopes and certainly not outlandish behavior with fruits and vegetables.

    And your remark as far as bugs being present now, this is disproved by the halacha that does NOT asser any bug that has hatched inside a fruit and has never seen daylight.

    #1009770

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ROB

    I think you misunderstand me.

    The bug was definitely assur, and was clearly visible as a bug once it dried itself off and started walking around on my finger.

    I wanted a magnifying glass for my own convenience, so that I should not have to sit there squinting at it until it found its towel and finished cleaning behind its ears.

    #1009771

    son
    Member

    rob:

    If after examining under a magnifying glass you confirm that what you see with your eyes is a bug, it’s osur. If you can’t see it at all using your eyes alone, that’s a different story.

    #1009772

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ROB, what popa is saying is that he saw, with his eyes, the bug crawling. That’s nireh l’einaim.

    Also, look in S.A. Y.D. 84, 6 and 7. It says there that if it was maslia while the fruit was still attached, or even if is not known whether it was attached or already harvested, it is assur.

    #1009773

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    son: check popabarabba comments. without the magnifying glass, he would not have known what it is at all.

    popabarabba: without the aid of a magnifying glass, you would not have known it is anything but a tiny speck of parsley.That is exactly what you wrote.

    DaasYochid; Popabarabba used the magnifying glass to identify the speck. This is what he wrote.

    So, why stop at a magnifying glass? (incidentally, they come in different strengths) Why not use a microscope? I am not asking for a nuclear powered microscope that is difficult to get, just a garden variety microscope.

    I bet you you would find a lot of live stuff at those strengths!

    #1009774

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    ROB:

    I think you read too quickly. I wrote that while I was staring at it trying to figure it out, it dried off and started crawling across my finger.

    #1009775

    Logician
    Participant

    DY – I would have to assume that the OP was referring to what is quite common – people not being makpid on this halacha in general, not just while going out the door or to the bathroom.

    #1009776

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, Logician, that is why I said that this was his best tayna.

    #1009777

    charliehall
    Participant

    “I bet you you would find a lot of live stuff at those strengths!”

    At those strengths almost no food would be free of infestation and we would starve to death. That isn’t what Chazal intended.

    #1009778

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    At those strengths almost no food would be free of infestation and we would starve to death. That isn’t what Chazal intended.

    Correct, and nobody argued that we need a microscope. The microscope argument is an unintentional straw man argument.

    #1009779

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “”I bet you you would find a lot of live stuff at those strengths!”

    At those strengths almost no food would be free of infestation and we would starve to death. That isn’t what Chazal intended.”

    Not sure what chazal’s intentions have to do with anything. The issue of tolaim are ?????? ???????.

    But all of that is meaningless because all the items above are referring to bugs that are visible to the naked eye.

    If you put the strawberry behind your back, you would not even see the whole strawberry let done the bugs. Perhaps you can use that as a heter. Because if you don’t know what the bugs look like, how can you say they are not visible. You just have no idea what you are looking at.

    Perhaps you consider being informed a chumra. And a chumra that you are not willing to accept.

    #1009780

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Not sure what chazal’s intentions have to do with anything. The issue of tolaim are ?????? ???????.

    Yes, the issur of tolaim is d’oraisa, but depending on the level of infestation, the chiyuv for bedikah might be d’rabbonon.

    #1009781

    Drey kup
    Member

    Do any major poskim permit eating fresh strawberries under certain circumstances? Does OU or any major kashrus organization certify any fresh strawberries as kosher?

    #1009782

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Perhaps you consider being informed a chumra. And a chumra that you are not willing to accept.”

    I’m not suggesting eating bugs that aren’t kosher. I’m just pointing out that to insist that you have to do inspections that were impossible in the times of Chazal and that if you don’t you are eating non-kosher bugs you are saying that Chazal ate non-kosher bugs chas v’shalom!

    #1009783

    charliehall
    Participant

    “nobody argued that we need a microscope”

    I didn’t bring up the possibility of a microscope. But there is no fundamental difference between a microscope and a simple magnifying glass — both are simply ground glass lenses. Neither were available to Chazal. And neither were light tables. If you start allowing technological advances to change halachah, ein l’dvar sof.

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