November 17, 2010 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #710722addictedParticipant
No one, not even you, can argue that a BMW is not a luxury. If you need a car that you can count on, and that won’t break every day and a half- I’ll give you some suggestions that cost thousands less than a BMW. There is a reason why it is known as a “luxury car” even in the secular worldNovember 17, 2010 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #710723
oh i know it’s a luxury, but i don’t really see a problem with it.
i personally dont care what people do with their money, what i do dislike people talking about another’s money. its so tasteless and this whole thread is full of that. seriously people, dont you have anything better to do with your time than worry about what people do with their possessions?November 17, 2010 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #710724myfriendMember
Obviously bomb sees no problem with someone building the most ostentatious house on the block, with everything sticking out to make sure everyone passing, and all the neighbors, take notice.November 17, 2010 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #710725
no, you see there i would object, but that was not the contention of the OP. the OP was bashing AL:L displays of luxury. i concede that there are instances of gaivah among the wealthy, but to generalize is disgusting.
if someone lives in a wealthy neighbourhood and builds a huge house, kol hakavod. i wish them well, may them and their family live ad meah vesrim with bracha and hatzlacha. there is a distinct difference between living in luxury and flaunting, it’s sad that you can’t see the difference.November 17, 2010 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #710726dunnoMember
The question is why you have a problem with it.November 17, 2010 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #710727
Sacril what was “…a hilarious Pathetic post to state to begin with” ,which you are referring to?
If you look in the chumash it says:
“Y’vorechechu Hashem v’ishmrechu….” I heard once a nice thing, that this refers to getting a “Blessing of Gashmius”. We should get a bracha but rise above it, and not let it rise above us. Inflating our egos above us.
Bombmanic Don’t let it run your life, running to buy the most “expensive” shirts, albeit superior quality, maybe monogrammed too, etc.
Everyone knows the test of being wealthy is much harder than the test of being poor. When poor folks don’t have – they don’t have. Simple.
But when ppl have $$ and show it off its sickening. Its a real defect in character. Its the principle of it. How can you drive a lexus, have your wife in a fur coat, and vacaction in Florida when you know for a fact that your neighbor down the road can’t afford pampers for their babies? You do hurt others openly living a lifestyle others cannot afford.
You should feel shame when you live that much higher than the majority of the world around you.
Everyone knows that the test of being “blessed with wealth” is to learn to loosen up the attachment to holding on to the material. To open the unclenched fist and to give. Maybe that “Giving” means giving up the show of a higher standard of life that is not within a modest torahdik way.
My daughter’s teacher pointed something out real nice last week about the parsha. She said that according to what Avraham Avinu could have really afforded, it could be said (argued) that Rivkah Imaynu got cheap jewellery, as the gift from Eliezer. The point is that we should be happy with a modest amount.November 17, 2010 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #710728SacrilegeMember
If you want to argue ostentatiousness, thats all well and good.
Just dont do it under the heading of Tznius.November 18, 2010 12:31 am at 12:31 am #710729
in that situation he has a point, but in general i think its just jealousy that leads to this type of thread. i was discussing this thread with my boss and he told me that he agrees with the OP because luxury just isnt the yiddishe veg. then he dropped that he would buy a lexus if he could afford it. what’s good for the goos in this case is apparently not good for the gander. without saying it he basically admitted that he would be jealous of a lexus, but hed be fine if he had one for himself.November 18, 2010 12:34 am at 12:34 am #710730
ostentatious – 3 dictionary results
[os-ten-tey-shuhs, -tuhn-] Show IPA
1. characterized by or given to pretentious or conspicuous show in an attempt to impress others: an ostentatious dresser.
2. (of actions, manner, qualities exhibited, etc.) intended to attract notice: Lady Bountiful’s ostentatious charity.
Compare that with the definition of Modest (Tznius)
[mod-ist] Show IPA
1. having or showing a moderate or humble estimate of one’s merits, importance, etc.; free from vanity, egotism, boastfulness, or great pretensions.
2. free from ostentation or showy extravagance: a modest house.
3. having or showing regard for the decencies of behavior, speech, dress, etc.; decent: a modest neckline on a dress.
4. limited or moderate in amount, extent, etc.: a modest increase in salary.November 18, 2010 2:55 am at 2:55 am #710733
frumladywonderfulperson: i’m not saying it should run your life, enjoying luxury is not running your life. obsession with gashmiyus is running your life. there’s a difference, a difference none of you seem to understandNovember 18, 2010 2:58 am at 2:58 am #710734addictedParticipant
“dont you have anything better to do with your time than worry about what people do with their possessions?”
well I could ask the same question to you. Don’t you have anything better to do with your time than scream at people for worrying about what people do with their possessions?November 18, 2010 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #710736ramateshkolianMember
well, then, I give up. I clearly hit a raw nerve and since I am feeling so misunderstood, well, I will put my efforts elsewhere (which I am doing already), and why does everyone assume that people who posted here are jealous. You have no clue how much money I have (or my shver has j/k) Maybe I CAN afford all these labels, but choose to draw attention to my soul rather than my wallet with the way I dress. Good Shabbos everyone!November 18, 2010 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #710737mddMember
Frumladygit, Yiddishkeit is not Communism. “How can your wife wear a fur coat, when…?” — we are not in Soviet Russia.November 18, 2010 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #710738hudiParticipant
ramateshkolian – I do agree with you.
The essence of tznius is penimius over chitzonius. That a person’s soul is the thing that runs his life, not things that merely cover the cover to the soul i.e. the body
ostentatiousness, and labels, which put ostentatiousness front and center, are about chitzonius. Decorating the body to such an extent, that it’s not about covering the body anymore, but about drawing attraction to it. Making people forget that the body is merely a container for the soul and not an entity with any value by itself.
When a person dresses ostentatiously, he or she is putting the body first and the soul second and emphasizing the chitzoni over the pnimi and undermining tznius, which is about protecting/hiding inner beauty by covering outer beauty.November 19, 2010 1:29 am at 1:29 am #710739minyan galMember
“When a person dresses ostentatiously, he or she is putting the body first and the soul second”
Wearing designer labels does not necessarily mean being ostentatious. In fact, when a person has good taste they can be dressed in a very costly garment and the only thing that you might notice is the fact that they are dressed neatly and that their clothing fits them impeccably. Likewise, the same person can shop carefully and make a twenty dollar dress look like a thousand dollar dress. One thing a person cannot buy is good taste.November 19, 2010 5:04 am at 5:04 am #710740
mdd ha ha ha ha ha. Communists in Russia care what their neighbors have while they wear fur?
Listen for the record I am quoting the sefer “Orchas Tzaddikim” :
OBviously not in Loshen Ha KOdesh but in the translation by Rabbi Shraga Silverstein, publisher Feldheim.
(Vayikra 19:14) “And do not place a stumbling block before the blind”. Therefore it is a virtuous trait in a man not to wear unusually beautiful or costly garments, neither he, his wife, nor his children. The same applies to food and other matters- so that others not envy him. But if one has been graciously favored by the Blessed Creator with wealth and property, let him benefit others thereby, both rich and poor and comport himself gently with them and accord them lovingkindness.
However, it goes on and this is all within the chapter of The Gate of Envy and i must agree to what Bombmanic has been saying all along in a sense, that ….”Therefore one should keep himself far from envy and desire and NOT desire anythign possessed by others.”November 19, 2010 5:39 am at 5:39 am #710741mddMember
Frumladygit, the words of “The Orchos Tsadikim” (in this case) are a midas chasidus, not a required conduct.
About the communists, they wanted everybody to be equal. According to them, Rivka should not have an expensive coat, if Sara and Leah can not afford one.November 19, 2010 7:09 am at 7:09 am #710742ramateshkolianMember
hudi- finally!!! someone gets it!!! do I know you?
Minyan gal-I agree, it’s not about the money, it’s about the fact that you and I BOTH know that many of us have bought into the designers mentality- that we feel good wearing high end designers because they show we have money. Anyhow, that is NOT the point, the point is that if we truly understand and internalize tznius, the rest will follow…
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