lack of menchlichkiet yeshiva administration

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  • #601775

    abcd2
    Participant

    I received an invitation to a grandchilds Siddur play, which regrettably i cannot attend. I was stunned to see that the school planned it in the middle of the work day. In this economy it is so hard for people to take off, and if you are an hourly worker or part timer as many mothers are, you might not even get paid. (forget about most full time working fathers)Most parents need a dual income specifically for yeshiva tuition. A yeshiva would never hold a fundraiser (auction or tea) and expect parents to come other then on a Sunday or evening if they wanted any sort of attendance. I do not understand their lack of seichel and Menchlichkiet that they cannot do this very important event on a Sunday. Even if you would get paid, face time is so important these days in the workplace. I cannot believe a Yeshiva is so insensitive.

    #846796

    Toi
    Participant

    maybe they figure you want sunday to spend out with your kids/grandkids. or that 6 years olds have an early bedtime.

    #846797

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I received an invitation to a grandchilds Siddur play

    First of all, mazel tov! May he/she continue to grow in avodas Hashem.

    I think you’re being too harsh when you call this a lack of mentchlichkeit. Not everyone considers attendance at a siddur play as important as you do. Your difference of opinion with the school is probably in this regard, not that they think you should take off from work in order to attend.

    You can certainly call the school and share your concerns, and if enough parents and grandparents do so, they might reconsider.

    #846798

    seeallsides
    Participant

    They usually do try their best to accomodate everybody. There was probably a good reason and don’t take it so hard. Send your grandson a card in the mail – he will be thrilled. These are really not earth shattering issues.

    #846799

    whatshaiches
    Member

    While the timing of the event might not be a proper time (for you), I completely disagree with the notion that it is a lack of menchlichkeit & a lack of seichel on the school’s part. Maybe the school actually used some thought and that was the best time to make it. I would even say to not be so selfish that since its not going to work for you, that you just blame the school for its lack of menchlichkeit and seichel. Why not just call the school/teacher and see why the event is held when it is before jumping to a conclusion like the above. Nowadays, it almost seems easier to just go on a website and complain about something without even taking the time to see what the full story is.

    Should we say mothers of kids are lacking seichel as well when they make a party in school for their kids and the fathers can’t come because they are working during the day? Or maybe its a lack when the school makes shacris for the kids at 7:30 when its better for me (as a father) at 7:15 so I can daven with my child.

    Also, is it not worth a few unpaid hours to all mothers (and grandmothers) to see some nachas of your kids (gandkids).

    #846800

    abcd2
    Participant

    I was writing more for the parents then myself.You are correct it is very easy for a grandparent to just not attend and call to wish mazel tov. The same cannot be said for a parent.

    #846801

    WIY
    Member

    Don’t cry wolf

    #846802

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Actually I dont disagree with the Adminstration.

    Lets say they had the event on a Sunday, they would either have to pay all the teachers, Janitors and more who would have to work (You dont expect them to work for free)

    And now imagine there are 25 kids in a class, Maybe 1 parent would come during the week, but on a Sunday Both parents and 4 grandparents (Maybe Great-Grandparents-Siblings etc) would come per kid, it would be a logistical nightmare

    #846803

    midwesterner
    Participant

    This is a serious problem. I thik that we should move all siddur and chumash parties, as well as nursery and kindergarten graduations, to 8:30 PM. That way all of our 4 and 5 year olds will learn the virtues of late night study.

    We should train them at a very young age to not go to sleep on time. That way, by the time they get to yeshiva gedola, they will be ready to stay up learning till the wee hours of the morning, and then sleep through shacharis and half of morning seder. Perhaps we should provide them with cigarettes and beer. That will make them truly prepared for the full late Thursday night experience.

    #846804

    soliek
    Member

    way to blow something out of proportion…

    #846805

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Among all the mentchlichkeit issues I’ve heard about school administrators, this one is the least of my concerns.

    #846806

    apushatayid
    Participant

    You can shlep all the nachas you want out of your einiklach the next time you visit them. This should be your (as well as the administrators) biggest problem.

    #846807

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I thik that we should move all siddur and chumash parties, as well as nursery and kindergarten graduations, to 8:30 PM.

    To be fair, the OP also suggested Sunday.

    #846808

    to abcd2

    you are being too critical! This is life ! If your children were living overseas would you consider traveling for such occassion?

    Bli ayin hora with our grandchildren not being in the same town it is normal that we can’t attend every function and the children are understanding about it. We try to provide in any way possible to make their life easier and making a fuss about this does not fall into the category. While our children were growing up, my husband did a route for a food company and could never attend a Chumash seuda. Even when we asked that it be moved from let’s say 11:00 A.M. to 12:30 on the same day it was not possible. B”H the children understood that there were good intentions and we have lots of nachas from them! So change your attitude and focus what you can do, not what you can’t. Remember the schedule that may be good for you may not for another grandparent. B”H your grandchild has parent(s), your children, who can attend.

    #846809

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I think it is important for your kids to see that you are willing to inconvenience yourself and take off from your job for them. I think they should b’davka schedule things during the day to make sure that you have to take off from work.

    #846810

    abcd2
    Participant

    From mother point of view:

    to whatshieches “Also, is it not worth a few unpaid hours to all mothers (and grandmothers) to see some nachas of your kids (gandkids” I know of many parents who cannot afford those few hours.Regarding jumping to reasons and conclusions why scheduled on this day afriend of mine DID ask and was told that they always make a Siddur party in february and we realize that it is hard for parents to take off so some will come and some wont but this is the way we do it.

    To zahavasdad-Re paying janitor The event is sponsored,And regarding teachers you are talking about two teachers coming in on one day of the year,remember teachers get out early on fridays have off all chol hamoed and erev yom tov with out issue.Regarding logistical nightmare This event is made so parents should in fact come.

    to Feifun -agreed but I think this is another example of what is wrong with schools taking parents for granted and just keep on charging tuition.

    midwestener-i hope you realize i was not talking about evening

    To soliek yes their are more pressing concerns with yeshivas and Klal Yisroel, but to ask parents in this economy to lose money so they can attend a siddur party is not right. One mother commented that she will lose 75$ if she comes and I know another that used vacation time for midwinter break. Another parent told me about A Chumash party in another school but same situation, and they are concerned about face time at work as there are rumors of layoffs and cant take off this is REAL money not peanuts.As was written schools would never make a ladies tea or auction during school hours, as it would be an inconvenience to parents I do not understand why schools do this we are way past the days where most mothers were at home with the kids. I obviously cannot tell my young child that I will not be going but my goyishe bosses will not be to sympathetic of me taking off plus i admit I will lose vacation hours money that would be reimbursed at the end of the year if I dont use it

    #846811

    abcd2
    Participant

    Dear Mrs. Critique,when you were raising your kids most mothers were stay at home. Can I assume that for the time you were raising your kids you worked only part time or were stay at home? Did most of your friends have full time demanding jobs? Was the economic environment so bad that face time was so important? Myself and my friends have found that many of our parents are not aware of the hardship. Like my friend said the $75 dollars i am losing equals diapers and formula.Most people I know age 40 and under with more then two kids are simply struggling

    To POPa I know your last part was tongue in cheek but BH my kids know that every available free moment even if a free one does not exist is devoted to them

    #846812

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    remember teachers get out early on fridays have off all chol hamoed and erev yom tov with out issue

    I think you are taking teachers for granted.

    #846813

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    All of the siddur parties and Chumush parties from my children and grandchildren, with the exeption of one on a Sunday, were weekdays during school hours. And my experience is with at least a dozen different yeshivos. I’m sure the administration and the children realize that many can’t take off work to attend.

    #846814

    abcd2
    Participant

    to Dass yochid chas vishalom I believe Moros and rebbeim do a wonderful job and some of them are definitely underpaid or some unfortunately have to wait for a late paycheck. That being said I am simply stating fact, that they never have to worry about many of the time constraints other parents have. A frum teacher will never have to work till last second possible on Friday, have to worry about saving up a personal day for a dental or doctor appt, or be taken to task for not coming in on Chol Hamoed. Even a teacher that works a full day usually gets out of work between 4-430 and has a plethora of off time in addition to sick days.Once again teachers are wonderful but I am simply stating fact.

    #846815

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    abcd2,

    Your lack of consideration for teachers’ much needed and deserved Sundays off is inconsistent with your obvious respect for them.

    #846816

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Sunday is better? I cannot come. I teach 6 days a week, 2 nights, tutor privately 2-3 hours a day to help pay bills, teach in camps n the summer (soooooo hard!!),spend a few hours a week talking with former Talmidim ho need assistance. I guess I should ask my childrens teachers to make it on Erev Shabbos in the afternoon or Chol Hamoed……

    #846817

    EY Mom
    Participant

    As far as teachers, their hours, and the fact that they get off chol hamoed, etc., please let me clarify something for all those who feel that teachers get off easy.

    First of all, a teacher who finishes the day at 4-4:30 has at least the same workday as any 9-5 job – as teachers start their days sometime between 7:45-8:30am.

    Secondly, when a teacher finishes at 4 or 4:30, his or her day is far from over. They do not leave their work at the office. There are tests to grade, papers to mark, homework to check, lessons to prepare, parents to call…

    With all this in mind – including the lower salary range and, in many cases, the late paychecks – I don’t think it’s fair to speak as though teachers have the easy life because they get off Yom Tov and chol hamoed, or even summer vacation. Teaching requires an emotional investment and energy that does not exist in other professions. If we want them to be able to recoup their energy and have koach for our kids, these vacations are not too much to ask.

    And, no I am not a teacher. I am just a parent who appreciates what they do.

    #846818

    morahmom
    Participant

    abcd2 – I’m with you, although I don’t think that the issue stems from a lack of mentchlichkeit as much as a lack of wanting to deal with this new reality of working parents and grandparents.

    I am a teacher who is required, several times a year, to be present for Sunday or evening parent – teacher conferences. Why are the conferences more important than a Siddur or Chumash party?

    #846819

    apushatayid
    Participant

    School is for the benefit of the student, not the parent or grandparent.

    So you didn’t make it to the siddur party to see einikle sing modeh ani or dress like a tree. Life goes on.

    #846820

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I had a similar issue/problem. I inquired, and there was a very good reason why they did what they did, which I agreed with (and was unable to attend the party). Did you ask the Yeshiva why the party is on a weekday?

    #846821

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Did you ask the Yeshiva why the party is on a weekday?”

    This isnt rocket science. These children dont have school on the weekend.

    #846822

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    APY: Normally, the party would have been on Sunday (in my case, as was in previous years), but they moved it to a weekday.

    #846823

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    I also experienced a lack of mentchlichkeit in the Yeshiva administration. They ask for tuition money. A lot. How rude!!

    #846824

    Nechomah
    Participant

    In my sons’ cheder, there was no one invited to the siddur party. As a matter of fact, they took them to the kosel. The chumash party was arranged for at around 5:00 in the afternoon, which is when most people would be able to take off a little time to be able to attend if they want to come for the very start or come a little late if they can’t take off time. I think it worked for most people.

    #846825

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Just do away with all school parties. Come up with another way to make the receipt of a siddur (chumash, mishnayos, gemara) important in the eyes of the students. Perhaps have a local Rav come in and talk about the chashivus of tefilla, on their level of course.

    #846827

    abcd2
    Participant

    To Rabbaim-please be mochel me and I appreciate your hard work, and Hashem should reward on this world and the next for helping the next generation of Klal Yisroel but unfortunately many are in the same boat just to make ends meet especially people in caring professions. Not everyone can have a 9-5 job. You will never find a psycholgist teacher therapist pa etc.. who does not work at night just to make a decent salary. I would also like to acknowledge that you have a very tough emotional grind that might not be in other professions. BTW as a rebbe you have school on sunday and if your class made a play you could hold it without a problem 🙂

    To a pushatayid: School is for a parent as well, from a school you are not simply buying a right to send your child. You are hoping that the school will be a partner almost as much as your family to teach your child the Torah and values that you want instilled. So when the school is giving a Siddur to my child (i am attending) I want to be there because it is almost as if I AM giving over the Siddur to my child and it is a momentous occasion. This is not just simply the giving of a book. The school is my SHALIACH in Chinuch

    #846828

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Are they your partner or your shaliach?

    Or is it, for parties, they are your partner, but for teaching, they are your shaliach?

    #846829

    abcd2
    Participant

    Daas Yochid-As morah mom wrote many schools require teachers to be present at parent events we are talking about one or two sundays so an entire class parent body doesn’t loose out. Most women are working solely for Yeshiva tuition it would be nice if the yeshiva would be more understanding, that parents could have some extra yiddishe nachas without a bad taste. When they make a ladies tea or chinese auction and want OUR money they would never in a million years schedule it for the day time. Yet, as a parent you have to show appreciation and achrayus to your childs school so you make it your business and go after a long days work, and you give to the school bisimcha whatever you can afford because it is the right thing to do. This is one time that a school could be accommodating on their free time.

    EYMom: Please see Morah mom who succinctly talks about the new reality.Iam sorry but taking work home does not wash. Many people with the same salary structure take much more work home then marking tests and have to make free time off of business hours to speak to clients. I do agree that to be a teacher you have have a very good Neshoma but plenty of people in caring professions Doctors Social workers Lawyers(yes lawyers can become heavily involved in client welfare) Psychologists Rabbanim all care about people and do not have as much time off. That being said I do Fargin the teachers if they have so much time off gezunteheit.

    #846830

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    abcd2: On of the perks of being a Rebbe is that you don’t work certain times (such as the summer). In all fairness, they do get paid less because of it.

    #846831

    abcd2
    Participant

    to gavra: You are right however they are no different then other people as I will explain but first a disclaimer: Rebbes and Moros are very valuable in my eyes as they used their Bechira and mission in life to help raise Klal Yisroel, and do not always get their due.

    That being said they have pluses and minuses with their career like everyone else as it still is a job. To answer your point the pay scale for experienced rebbeim and moros is consistent with a middle class job. Regarding the summer time while admittedly not true for all rebbeim and moros, many I Know actually make MORE money in the summer then school year as their kids get free or reduced camp in exchange for their work, additionally they get tips. This cost saving plus the ability to tutor or other jobs with the free time is worth thousands.

    It is a matter of Mazel of course to get the job in the summer but many professions have slow seasons. Additionally, a teacher in this sense is like a self-employed person. In their free time they can choose to work in their given field or something else,and they go into their profession knowing some of the positives and negatives. Bear in mind, during the year yeshiva employees in most cases get free or reduced tuition for their children also a benefit worth thousands.Again the fact that I am mentioning some perks does not take away my respect for them but there are positives and negatives to every career.

    #846832

    abcd2
    Participant

    to apushatayid: In the strict sense a teacher is a shaliach. You are paying them to educate your child and hopefully some middos as well. (as an aside a young child can only learn true middos at home.A school can only serve to reinforce, I have heard and read this over and over again from many mechanchim and therapists).

    The Maale of Rebbeim and teachers is that they earnestly want to help raise this child Al Pi Torah which is why they went into teaching in the first place. Consequently they elevate through their Chesed their role of just a shaliach, to becoming a partner.

    This concept I believe is analogous to Eliezer elevating himself as if he was Avraham to find a wife for Yitzchak. Eliezer did not even ask for success in his mission when he Davened to Hashem to find Yitzchak’s wife, but rather said in the merit of my master Avraham should I find the right one.Eliezer by davening as such, was completely being mivatel Daas of himself as Shaliach, but acted almost as if he were Avraham himself davening for success.

    Strictly speaking Rebbeim are our Shlichim however due to their high Madreigos they elevate themselves to partnership.Rebbeim are mivatel their daas as a Shaliach and show a care and concern as if they were the parent. Therefore, they are Shacliach/partner in the same vain as Eliezer.

    That being said, A parent is still a parent and a rebbe is still a rebbe, each with their unique roles.Just like Avraham and Eliezer in their unique roles of finding a wife for Yitzchak.

    #846833

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    abcd2

    1-If I have school on Sunday I cannot go to My bio childs play on Sunday. I muct be in my own class

    2- A therapist earns 100+G a year, A Rebbi less than half

    3- A therapist can add or subtract hours, a Rebbi cannot

    4- there are no medical benefits or pensions so a Rebbi must work extra just to make ends come close

    5- A therapist gets paid for every outside lecture, speech, workshop. A Rebbi is expected to speak at simchos, give shiurim in shule, speak at various learning programs and other venues and is expected to fill the Chazal of just like I taught for free you should too. And I will. I feel it is a calling….. a mission But you should not take advantage of my calling.

    5- I am not complaining. I would not change professions for any offer.

    #846834

    basmelech
    Participant

    The invitation was meant as a courtesy not a chiyuv. If you can’t make it, don’t take it so hard. I have foregone several grand children’s school events because it was not convenient for me to attend and I didn’t get all upset about it. Send your grandchild a mazal tov card or something.

    #846835

    abcd2
    Participant

    To Rabbaim: Kol hakavod I agree strongly with your 5a and 5b.Which when you see my above post you will see that I have true appreciation for the neshama of a rebbe. Regarding therapists all therapists making that kind of cash are working night hours as well and are in private practice.This happens after years of building up a reputation, practice and expensive schooling to work towards the reputation and PHD. Most therapists though work for non profits and do not make near that.

    I am sure that when you decided to become a Rebbe you decided to become a Rebbe with your eyes wide open knowing that it might not make you materialistically rich but rather Mitzva Rich.All jobs in life have positives and negatives, and there are many jobs that people do for fulfillment rather then paycheck.And some people are even able to have both fullfillment and high pay.

    I would just like to say , Rebbeim and other tzarchei tzibbur don’t always get their due, I hope you realize that I and many others know that your real job is chessed. The fact that you get paid something to accomplish this Chessed is irrelevant.

    A Rebbe would not be able to accomplish this important mission without a paycheck,and you are worth every penny.

    #846836

    abcd2
    Participant

    To Basmelech :This is now more about parents themselves having a hard time attending please see above posts

    #846837

    squeak
    Participant

    Rabbaim, I saw your posts and I have a question. You said that in addition to your main position that is 6 days a week and two nights, you also tutor 2-3 hours per day and work in the summer. In your next post you said that a Rebbi clears less than half of the 100G a therapist can earn. Is that really apples-to-apples though? Sach hakol, the teaching plus the tutoring plus the summer job must come to more than 50G. If not, I am shocked beyond words.

    If you,meant to say that just the teaching pays that amount, then I don’t think the comparison is fair. Would you agree? The person earning 100G does not have time for 2-3 hours of tutoring and a summer job on top of their main job! Also, therapists who get paid by the hour at such high rates like consultants usually don’t have benefits or pensions on top of that. The benefits are “built in” to the hourly rate.

    #846838

    apushatayid
    Participant

    ABCD. You opened by complaining about a grandchilds siddur play. If you cant make it, you cant make it. It is hard enough to accommodate all class parents, now you expect them to check with all grandparents too? If they did that, they will never hold a play. All they can do is give some advance notice and hope people can make the appropriate arrangements. If you miss it, you miss it. Its not the end of the world for you, your children or your grandchildren. Of course I can understand the pressure to attend if the other bubby or zeidy was there and you are not……but, that is not the schools problem.

    #846839

    soliek
    Member

    why even does this thread even have so many posts even

    #846840

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Squeak. Thanks for reading. its always nice to know someone out there cares.

    Rebbis salary is about 50, take off 11G for health (Gruss foundation pays 8 for us)

    take off 1g for 1 mil term life (chiyuv!! wish I could do more)

    take off 22 G for tuition. yes Rebbi rate is about 75% of full tuition and I don’t have 8 kids in school

    take off 19 G a year for mortgage, 5 G for utilities and of course I need to work nights and summers. food an clothing, car and ins. etc….

    But I also need to be “involved and immersed in learning” otherwise I cannot be a good in class Rebbi or out of class example. It is tough to balance finances, and own family needs. I enjoy every waking and sleeping moment (the 4 hours I actually get each night) and I would not trade it for any other job. but in this world the financial pix is hard, we are deep in debt that one day, hopefully can be covered by the sale of my house, and I still would pick this over anything.

    At the same time, I wonder what would be if indeed we were paid a living wage commensurate with our training and the hours per day and days per week.What wopuld be if I didn’;t have to be calling gmachs each month to cover for another delayed paycheck. What would be if living frugally with no vacations, I was able to match expenses to income. I would imagine I could be a better, more patient, better prepared Rebbi. I imagine I would learn more and know more and give over more to our children. I imagine I would have the koach to invite Talmidim for Shabbos and Motazai Shabbos programs more regularly. I imagine there would be less stress to deal with at home and therefore more yisuv hadaas in all areas of life. I could even dream about “learning in a kollel” for the summer since the 70 days of summer are really all my Sundays and holidays of the year piled up minus Chol Hamoed, plus normal vacation allowance. How special that would be for me and for all who look to mechanchim to teach, lecture, consult and inspire.

    I will dream on. Happily.

    One final feeliong. Don’t reject my daughter in shiduchim because she comes form a home with no extra resources.

    #846841

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    One final feeling. Don’t reject my daughter in shiduchim because she comes form a home with no extra resources.

    May the Ribbono Shel Olam deal with you Shelo K’derech Teva and give you this Neis.

    #846842

    oomis
    Participant

    May the Ribbono Shel Olam deal with you Shelo K’derech Teva and give you this Neis. “

    Amein to that. Nice bracha, Gavra. Ditto from me.

    #846843

    abcd2
    Participant

    Rabbaim again you deserve many praises for helping the klal, but I hear your stress in your post about income. I hope you fully realize that the grass isn’t always greener on the other side of assumed financial security. Many parents have the same financial situation as you do or worse and hectic schedule.They do not have the sechar of teaching though which is your perk.

    #846844

    morahmom
    Participant

    I am looking at this discussion from many different sides: morah, mother, bubby, and wife of a principal. Any morah/rebbe who invests as much time and effort to get first graders to be “performance- ready” certainly wants there to be a crowd. Bubbys and Zaidys who live locally and are already part of the daily lives of the eineklach certainly want to share such a milestone. And yet, the administration needs to grapple with asking teachers to give up more of their personal time… which would not have them win any popularity contests.

    It is a difficult call – but abcd2, I certainly appreciate your speaking up, on behalf of dedicated Bubbies everywhere. Maybe someone can figure out some p’shara that would work for more people.

    #846845

    farrockgrandma
    Participant

    I was also a working parent, and while I appreciate all of the considerations in scheduling a school event, there are times when the school could be a little more, well, considerate. There are civil holidays that fall during the week, and the schools could take better advantage. I remember one elementary class play that took place on President’s Day – the room was packed, with fathers as well as mothers. It was very frustrating to see a school event scheduled within a few days of a civil holiday, when it would take very little thought to use the day so that more parents could attend. It means a lot to a parent to be able to participate, and the handful of times that the school calendar made it possible really stand out in my memory.

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