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It seems that two Rabbanim in Lakewood have put out a letter telling people not to patronize a burger restaurant in Toms River, NJ beacuse it “has an environment that adds to the degrading of accepted boundaries.” It seems they are referring to Jewish children who hang out there. I have seen quite a stir in which most people are lambasting the Rabbanim for small-mindedness and intolerance to elements of our community that don’t “fit the box”.
Discuss.
@Rocky:
Why would you be machshil people in dishonoring those rabbanim?That call doesn’t show intolerance of anyone. They presumably fully sympathize with those suffering souls, as everyone should.
However, given the “facts on the ground” at that establishment, they don’t want frum people going there.I have a theory that the majority of cheesecake bought for shavuos ends up in the garbage (and hence eaten by the local squirrels-or whatever your local animals are). People get all excited about keeping the minhag and ended up buying, making or getting gifts of cheesecake for much more than is able to be consumed. Also,most people end up eating more fleishig than milchig meals (especially this year with one day shabbos) and hence the opportunities to consume all the cheesecake are quite limited.
Funny how two rabbis can publicly damage a fellow Jew’s livelihood with vague phrases like “degrading boundaries,” yet never specify a single illegal act, kashrus issue, or actual aveirah taking place there.
A burger shop where teenagers hang out is now treated like Sodom? Since when did a few kids eating fries and talking become a communal emergency worthy of public blacklisting?
And did anyone bother speaking privately to the owner first before trying to economically strangle his business in public?
People are tired of this vague, insinuating style of public shaming. If there’s a real problem, say what it is plainly. If not, this just looks like small-minded social policing dressed up as righteousness.
AMEN!!!
Rocky,
If it’s the restaurant I think you’re referring to then I can tell you that the same restaurant in the 5 towns is a hangout and their promotions idolize sports memorabilia so it’s understandable where this is coming from that they don’t want that in Lakewood
It seems that commentators want everyone to be understanding of the poor burger joint and the poor children hanging out there. And it is true, we should be. But please understand. The rabbis have other parents come crying to them thaat their children are being affected by the hangout. This is a warning that that is what is happening there. The owners have a right, and perhaps should be commended for having a safe place for such children to hang out. That doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t warn others to beware. And please don’t be obtuse. Degrading boundaries means boys and girls hanging out together doing who know what (yes, you do know what) and possibly drugs, smoking, etc.
The first rule of helping others is do no harm in the process. here it means affecing others.
The question is, is this lashon hara, if it is that applies to rabbanim also
I am always fascinated by the actions taken by the rabbinical mafioso in Lakewood to control people. It is only about control. Yet, these very same rabbis will not discuss nor put out letters and the like on yiddishe ganovim running around Lakewood. And you all know what goes on in Lakewood with dirty real estate details, cash advances, and being the capital of Ponzi schemes. All you so-called rabbonim know it but your problem is that you set aside Torah for money. Yes, money trumps everything in Lakewood.
I don’t know at what point it became acceptable to bash holy rabbis and put them down just because you don’t agree with them on something. They definitely looked into it and found the problem to be prevalent. All the people that have the hands off approach and don’t think there’s any issue should know that we’ve been down that road before, and once there’s an improper atmosphere that affects young people, it could be many years before some of the damage gets fixed. Any Jewish Soul lost is one too many, and a place that can affect negatively the spiritual well-being of our children has to be addressed. If you don’t think that’s important the problem already hit you long ago
We’ve been down this road before in many communities and multiple Generations, the rabbis are not stupid and naive. The spiritual well-being of our children is top priority and while many people may not see it as a big deal if a few get lost, there’s no permission to gamble with even a single one of them. Rabbi’s are our spiritual leaders and when they see a danger the right thing to do is respect them and know that they didn’t just decide this overnight like some people think. If your attitude is what’s the big deal that means the problem already hit you long ago and affected you to this day
Reb emes. I understand your point. But what about the damage to the store. Did the store people ask for those people to come in. It’s not the stores fault or responsibility….and again it’s all dependant on educating the youth properly. With proper strong moral compass and values you shouldn’t be so worried people will just change their colors so fast based off the actions of others. That just means our education system isn’t good. People don’t just throw off their upbringing because of some bad kids behaviour, unless, they hang out with them….or don’t like their own lifestyle in the first place
Look how many rabbinical company men are coming out of the woodwork. Some try to obfuscate their toadyism (re: “the poor burger joint and the poor children hanging out there”), while others have no qualms about shilling for the Farfrumters (re: “to bash holy rabbis” and “Rabbi’s [sic] are our spiritual leaders and when they see a danger the right thing to do is respect them.”
Actually I just think people should think for themselves and come to their own conclusions, but I do see both sides actually to be honest
All you freethinkers should think carefully before commenting and remember the mishna;
המבזה תלמיד חכם, אפיקורוסUncle Ben I hear you but everybody is entitled to their own opinion but the fascism and threats. Ok thanks
Look at what both pirkei avos and the shaarei teshuva of rabbanu yona says about people who disparage talmidei chachamim. The gemara says straight out there’s no cure to his wound. Unfortunately people play with this fire online constantly but just remember it’s all being recorded. It’s not worth your Anonymous few minutes of fame to put them down
Uncle Ben. Threats and more threats.
Always threats.Pirkei avos is mishna, literally the most accepted and widely learned Torah there is. You’ll find threats throughout the whole thing. Guess what Judaism is not a feel-good religion that caters to people’s feelings and emotions. It’s the exact opposite. It’s instructions from your Creator and consequences for disobedience. It really doesn’t matter if you like it or not eventually you’re going back home
Rebemes,
Do you realize how ignorant the “Argument of Authority” makes you look?I definitely agree with what your saying
But let’s diffretiate “threats” with common sense and wise council, and consenquences of bad choicesThere’s a huge difference.
Threats generally are used for control.
Consequences and warnings of consenquences are used to teach and help people learn and navigate the world
One is for cult/fear/indoctrination
And the other is for council/warning/and helpful guidance, sometimes neccisary warning.
One is love. One is control.
These are very different spectrums of reality
If you don’t grasp these principles properly, people can use these powerful tools to create a socioty that becomes a straightjacket of extremism, and dramatic fear mongering that is not only not helpful but also not biblicalI don’t know enough about the situation and yhe extent or the iseue being raised, and so luckily it’s not my job to mix in.
What can be said is that there is a lot at stake and the decision to publicize such a letter is obviously a heavily weighed one. The individual’s choice of source of income is one aspect, but that obviously does not overweigh the importance of keeping a town kosher.
Again there are those people that automatically will run to bash anything a rabbi does. You really think these two people woke up and said you know what I’m going to go ruin that Jews business today, they have a majority backing of their community that doesn’t want these type of environments prevalent. Did you just discover what Lakewood is? This is what they want and it would not work in Teaneck or the five towns. But over there they’re much more spiritually sensitive and it’s important to show respect
Nevuah; I didn’t write any threats or fascism. I was just referring to the Mishna/Gemara in Sanhedrin 10:1 where it says that an apikoros doesn’t have a chelek in olam haba. One of the definitions of an apikoros in the gemara is one who shames or derides a Talmid Chochom.
For the life of me I find it difficult to understand why agnostics persist in viewing and commenting on a site catering to frum Jews. I don’t visit agnostic sites and bother them with Torah true views.Uncle Ben understood. But you said “everybody should think carefully before xyz”
That’s a threat.
Can we please call a spade a spade..thanks
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