Lashon Hara in the CR?

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  • This topic contains 40 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  Avi K 3 weeks ago.
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  • #1573315

    Doing my best
    Participant

    Is it considered lashon Hara (Which if everyone knew who the person was would be a problem) to say it about a username in the CR who no one knows who this person really is?

    #1573977

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Doing my best,

    “Is it considered lashon Hara (Which if everyone knew who the person was would be a problem) to say it about a username in the CR who no one knows who this person really is?”

    Not knowing who someone is does not remove the problem of lashon hara. Are you allowed to speak lashon hara about a visitor to a town, even if nobody knows his name? Beyond that, many people do know the screennames of their friends and family who post in the CR.

    #1573698

    laskern
    Participant

    There is a pasuk in Mishlei 11: 13 הולך רכיל מגלה סוד one goes and gossips by revealing secrets.

    #1573531

    ChadGadya
    Participant

    The mods might have their real name.

    #1573360

    laskern
    Participant

    Revealing a secret is lashan hara. A kohen was killed when he revealed to his friend that the floor was not level in the Beis Hamikdash and the holy ark was hidden there.

    #1574187

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Mods can access a CR member’s email.
    It happened to me last year when a mod reached out for legal help for a person hospitalized near me.

    The email I have for my registration on this site is a blind. It does not have my ‘real name’

    #1584196

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Quite a few articles that yeshiva world posts are lashon hara.
    Many of the comments involve sinah and lashon hara, as well as spreading certain people’s thoughts on what they think they halacha is, on what they think torah is, and that is wrong. We say shev vial taaseh even one aveira in the face of many mitzvos. All the good yeshiva world does is undone by the one bad article they post, or the one negative comment they let through. There is no way that a rav could allow this lichatchila.

    #1584297

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    avreichamshlomoParticipant
    Quite a few articles that yeshiva world posts are lashon hara.
    ———————————
    If that is your belief, then you are oiver many lavin by visiting this site as a recipient of loshon hara. Do the right thing and never come back. It is erev slichus after all.

    #1584305

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    In addition, I am trying to have an open conversation, and as soon as I say something that might actually have some meaning, or ring true, you tell me to go away and never return. Is that how a normal person speaks to people? Is that how yidden have a normal conversation? Not at all.

    #1584303

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    There you go my friends, this is the face of chutzpah and gaavah at its utmost.
    You are staring an aveira in the face, and you are basically implying that I am wrong, and really it isnt an aveirah at all.
    Why dont you give your insight on this topic?
    I am not trolling to make people upset. I am genuinely trying to understand people’s mindsets when they go to yeshiva world for their news. On fox news comments on their articles, there is no hock back and forth between yidden.
    Now, on sites like these, it is focusing on jewish issues, great, but there should be no reason to allow or promote the extra gossip that goes along with it, or putting out an article that asks, hmmmmmm did deri snub the gedolim?
    That’s like reading the front page of people magazine, or maybe even the national Enquirer. Whether the article is true or not, it is clear that the entire approach is to grab people by dangling the juicy headline in front of them.

    #1584308

    Imma613
    Participant

    avreichamshlomo: I agree wholeheartedly. This site used to be a kosher place to get news. Lately (as in the last year or so) they have engaged in posting inflammatory anti-chareidi articles. Why is it muttar for anyone but those directly affected to hear constant negative stories about the peleg protesters and the like? This is pure lashon hara. It is not l’toeles for any of us to know – especially those in chu”l. Who is the rabbinic advisor for this site that mattirs these types of articles? I stopped coming to this site for many weeks because of this trend, and only recently checked back again. I am glad someone in the CR raised this point because this has been bothering me for a long time.

    #1584317

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I don’t open news stories that look like something i wouldn’t want to read and i make a point never to read comments.

    #1584350

    Avi K
    Participant

    1. Negative comments about something that has been posted are not LR. If someone would reveal something persona about a poster that would be.
    2. Asking someone to prove his humanity in order to log in is onaat devarim (@mods).
    3. Negative articles about individuals or groups may or may not be LR. In many cases the tzibbor should be warned about them. If someone is a rasha it is a mitzva to condemn his actions.

    #1584355

    YW Moderator-100
    Moderator

    2. Asking someone to prove his humanity in order to log in is onaat devarim (@mods).

    I assume you are joking about onaat devarim.

    If this really does bother you, you should address your complaint to those who program the site, rather than to those who merely moderate the comments in the Coffee Room.

    #1584489

    gavriel613
    Participant

    avreichamshlomo, Imma613, I agree. Maybe leave comments on treife articles saying why they’re not OK. YWN’s own rules state that they don’t want to be “Loshon Hora central”, so presumably they are shogegim and education is what’s required.

    #1584475

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Avi k, not yotzei.

    the comments are full of sinas chinam. It is very nice to show how lashon hara is non existent as well, and you are basically that deri is a rasha; as that is the example I gave, and you say mitzva lifarsem.

    In addition, the chafetz chaim has not since come back to life and changed his mind. Last I checked, he himself said that he is more afraid of lashon hara so to speak, than the mitzvah to be mifarsem, and wouldn’t take the chance.
    This is conveniently left out every time someone attempts to justify the addiction for lashon hara.
    Even if most of the time it would be a mitzvah lifarsem, on the tzad of it not being a mitzvah, when it is not a mitzvah at all, it is an aveira, and there is no heter to me marbitz that aveirah lirabim.

    #1584539

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Maybe one of the sticky threads should define “Moderator”.

    #1584534

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    The CR and News site are run by different people.

    #1584499

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Lashon Hara is not necessarily about revealing per se. It is the kind of talk that causes harm, or fights.

    I know for a fact that someone who gets blasted by alias is affected as well. This is especially true if someone invested his personality, opinions and feelings into his online persona. Many here have virtual friends, acquaintances and think-alikes. Someone who attacks my personality is attacking me.

    So, hurting and insulting someone online is Onaas Devarim, and therefore, causing others to do so in Lashon Hara.

    #1584544

    Avi K
    Participant

    YW Moderator-100, no I am not. It is insulting and superfluous. If you are really concerned about some Russian hacker leaving comments the arithmetic problem alone will suffice. Being that I do not know who programs the site, let alone how to contact them I cannot address my complaints directly to them. Therefore, I am addressing them to the only ones I can hope will pass on the complaint. This is something that someone who works with the public, as I have, should understand.

    Avreichamshlomo,
    1. Not yotzei what?
    2. By making a general statement about the comments you are over on hotzaat shem ra.
    3. You are correct. The CC has not come back to life so it is necessary to interpret him. If you have noticed the mods edit or delete comments. I presume that where this issue arises they consult a rav. If your interpretation would be followed every malefaction of public figures would be hushed up as in totalitarian states.

    #1584556

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Your answers are simply not responding to my points. And you continue to not address them directly.

    1. You are not yotzei an answer to my points.
    2. I have said at least twice, that if there is even one comment, or one article, that had milim bishim, which means lashon hara, sinas chinam, whatever it is, any kind of thing that is Amir to say, it is therefore not worth the entire web site. Are we clear on that?

    3. Who said anything about reinterpreting the Chafetz Chaim?
    He himself has written in his sefarim how people continue to say lashon hara under the guise of it being a mitzvah, when they shouldn’t say it all, and that even if it is a case of a rasha, it is better to be shev vial taaseh than to possibly say lashon hara about the person. This is not reinterpreting anything, this is his shots. This means that in the face of being a baal lashon hara, it is better to not say anything at all.
    It would be nice if you would actually address what I am saying, rather than giving an answer that seems to definately ne a response, but without having any substance to it.
    We are not playing a blame game here, but that is all that seems to be available. I am talking about the ywn in general, and you continue to make it about me saying motzei shem ra, lashon hara etc.

    #1584557

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Regarding the hushing up, let the goyishe world expose the rishus there. When it comes to yidden, who follow the torah, it simply comes down to this basic fact, we do not do that. Even if there is a case of a rasha, we can publicize it, if we would ignore the chofetz chaim, but there is nobody who would allow the leitzanus, or additional nasty comments about the so called rasha. Yes or no?

    #1584558

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Everyone knows what lashon hara is. If I would say one morning, “I want to avoid lashon hara,” does that mean every time that I speak lashon hara, it is considered bishogeg? I dont think so

    #1584709

    Avi K
    Participant

    Avreichcamshlomo, better that non-Jews should expose it? That would just increase the chillul Hashem. Please quote the exact place where the CC says shev v’al tasseh. In any case, making a comment about an opinion is definitely not LR. Even where the comment is directed at the person, according to your interpretation the Raavad was over on LR of the Rambam many times. Not to mention various other comments that chachamim such as the Maharshal made.

    Here are the words of the CCL:

    הלכות לשון הרע ד ז
    וְכָל אֵלּוּ הַדִּינִין שֶׁכָּתַבְנוּ הוּא דַּוְקָא בְּאִישׁ, אֲשֶׁר מִנְהָגוֹ וְדַרְכּוֹ לְהִתְחָרֵט עַל חֲטָאָיו, אֲבָל אִם בָּחַנְתָּ אֶת דַּרְכּוֹ, כִּי אֵין פַּחַד אֱלֹהִים לְנֶגֶד עֵינָיו וְתָמִיד יִתְיַצֵּב עַל דֶּרֶךְ לֹא טוֹב, כְּמוֹ הפּוֹרֵק מֵעָלָיו עֹל מַלְכוּת שָׁמַיִם אוֹ שֶׁאֵינוֹ נִזְהָר מֵעְבֵרָה אַחת, אֲשֶׁר כָּל שַׁעַר עַמּוֹ יוֹדְעִים שֶׁהִיא עֲבֵרָה, דְּהיְנוּ בֵּין שֶׁאוֹתָה הָעֲבֵרָה, שֶׁהוּא רוֹצֶּה לְגַלּוֹת, עָשָׂה הַחוֹטֵא כַּמָּה פְּעָמִים בְּמֵזִיד אוֹ שֶׁעָבר בְּמֵזִיד כַּמָּה פְּעָמִים עֲבֵרָה אַחַת הַמְפֻרְסֶמֶת לַכֹּל שֶׁהִיא עֲבֵרָה, אִם כֵּן מוּכָח מִנֵּה שֶׁלֹּא מֵחֲמַת שֶׁגָּבַר יִצְּרוֹ עָלָיו עָבַר עַל דִּבְרֵי ה’ כִּי אִם בִּשְׁרִירוּת לִבּוֹ הוּא הוֹלֵךְ, וְאֵין פַּחַד אֱלֹהִים לְנְגֶד עֵינָיו, לָכֵן מֻתָּר לְהַכְלִימוֹ וּלְסַפֵּר בִּגְנוּתוֹ בֵּין בְּפָנָיו וּבֵין שֶׁלֹּא בְּפָנָיו. וְאִם הוּא יַעֲשֶׂה מַעֲשֶׂה אוֹ יְדַבֵּר דָּבָר, וְיֵשׁ לְשָׁפְטוֹ לְצַּד הַזְּכוּת וּלְצַד הַחוֹב, צָּרִיךְ לְשָׁפְטוֹ לְצַּד הַחוֹב, אַחֲרֵי שֶׁנִּתְחַזֵּק לְרָשָׁע גָּמוּר בִּשְׁאָר עִנְיָנָיו, וְכֵן אָמְרוּ רַבּוֹתֵינוּ “לֹא תוֹנוּ אִישׁ אֶת עֲמִיתוֹ”, עַם שֶׁאִתְּךָ בְּתוֹרָה וּבְמִצְוֹת, אַל תּוֹנֵהוּ בִּדְבָרִים, וַאֲשֶׁר לֹא שָׁת לִבּוֹ לִדְבַד ה’, מֻתָּר לְהַכְלִימּוֹ בְּמַעֲלָלָיו וּלְהוֹדִיעַ תּוֹעֲבוֹתָיו וְלִשְׁפֹּךְ בּוּז עָלָיו, וְעוֹד אָמְרוּ: מְפַרְסְמִין אֶת הַחֲנֵפִים מִפְּנִי חִלּוּל ה’, וְכָל שֶׁכֵּן אִם הוֹכִיחַ אוֹתוֹ בָּזֶה וְלֹא חָזַר, דְּמֻתָּר לְפַרְסְמוֹ וּלְגַלּוֹת עַל חֲ טָאָיו בְּשַׁעַר בַּת רַבִּים וְלִשְׁפֹּךְ בּוּז עָלָיו, עַד שֶׁיַּחֲזֹר לְמוּטָב, וּכְמוֹ שֶׁכָּתַב הָרַמְבַּ”ם בְּסוֹף פֶּרֶקּ ו’ מֵהִלְכוֹת דֵּעוֹת {הלכה ח’}, אַךְ יֵשׁ לִזָּהֵר שֶׁלֹּא לִשְׁכֹּחַ פְּרָטִים אֲחָדִים הַמִּצְטָרְכִים לָזֶה, וּכְתַבְתִּים בִּבְאֵר מַיִם חיִּים.

    #1584713

    Avi K
    Participant

    If the person is dangerous (and this includes crooked politicians) there is also an obligation to warn people about him because of “lo taamod al dam reicha”.

    #1584819

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    I will need to find the source.

    When I said let the goyim expose them, I am talking about their own. Let them expose their own.

    For us, we dont expose our own.It’s called mesira.

    #1584807

    Joseph
    Participant

    At the end of Shmiras HaLashon (Hilchos Rechilus 9:15), the Chofetz Chaim writes that the prohibitions against Lashon Hara and Rechilus do not apply to reshaim and kofrim and that it is, in fact, a mitzvah to mock such persons:

    “מצוה לפרסם דעתם הכוזבת לעיני הכל ולגנותם, כדי שלא ילמדו ממעשיהם הרעים.”

    “It is a mitzvah to make their false opinions public before all, and shame them so that others do not learn from their evil deeds.”

    “החפץ חיים בהלכות לשון הרע כלל ח’ סעיף ה’ – אומר: “אותם האנשים שמכירם שיש בהם אפיקורסות מצווה לגנותם ולבזותם בין בפניהם ובין שלא בפניהם”.

    ובהמשך- “אפיקורוס נקרא הכופר בתורה… ואפילו הוא אומר כל התורה כולה מן השמים חוץ מפסוק אחד…”

    #1584934

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    So a person has to “say” that he doesnt believe in 1 pasuk, in order to be considered an apikorus?
    What if he doesnt actually say it?

    #1584963

    laskern
    Participant

    The Rambam Hilchas Deas 6:8 says אבל בדברי שמים אם לא חזר בו בסתר but when it comes to heavenly matters, if he does not repent when admonished privately, מכלימין אותו ברבים we embarass him in public ומפרסמין חטאו and we publicize his sin ומחרפין אותו בפניו and we humiliate him personally ומבזין ומקללין אותו we ashame and curse him עד שיחזור למוטב until he turns to the good, the way all the prophets did. This does not apply to sins between fellow Jews.

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by  laskern.
    #1585013

    laskern
    Participant

    Something related to above is in SA YD 334, an argument between the Rema and the TAZ, if we worry about the cinsequences when we put someone in cherem.

    #1585016

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    avi k: In any case, making a comment about an opinion is definitely not LR.

    its a little bit strenuous that you are not responding to the actual points put forth.

    i never said that. Making a negative comment is.

    #1585030

    Avi K
    Participant

    Avreichashlomo, wrong again. It is permitted to expose someone who acts against the public (SA CM 388:12) .The Rema, for example, says that it is permitted to expose a forger (ibid). I refer you to Informing on Others for Violating American Law: A Jewish Law View online.

    #1585035

    laskern
    Participant

    The difference is speaking on a specific group or individual instead of speaking in general, but as long as they are pen-names used, the individuals are not known.

    #1585049

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So a person has to “say” that he doesnt believe in 1 pasuk, in order to be considered an apikorus?
    What if he doesnt actually say it?

    Then how would we know? And if we don’t know, למאי נפקא מינה?

    #1585065

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    If someone is mechallel shabbos , besides all the issurim is he also an apikorus?

    #1585115

    laskern
    Participant

    Takes2, yes, if he mechallel shabbos lehachis where his wine would be yayin nesech and is mumor lechol hatorah kulah, but not letaiovan when he is a tinuk shenishbo.

    #1585310

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    A negative comment on an article from one person to another, bashing them, calling them names, etc from one commentor to another is what I mean by negative comment.

    Gee whilikers… I don’t think you are actually reading what I am writing?

    I wrote:
    2. I have said at least twice, that if there is even one comment, or one article, that had milim bishim, which means lashon hara, sinas chinam, whatever it is, any kind of thing that is asur to say, it is therefore not worth the entire web site. Are we clear on that?

    #1585324

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I have said at least twice, that if there is even one comment, or one article, that had milim bishim, which means lashon hara, sinas chinam, whatever it is, any kind of thing that is asur to say, it is therefore not worth the entire web site. Are we clear on that?

    I’m not ch”v defending l”h, but why is that true? If someone once spoke l”h in a house, does that make the entire house worthless? If a person ch”v speaks l”h, does that make his whole life worthless?

    #1585371

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Laskern says:
    Takes2, yes, if he mechallel shabbos lehachis where his wine would be yayin nesech and is mumor lechol hatorah kulah, but not letaiovan when he is a tinuk shenishbo.
    —————————–
    Laskern:
    When will you learn to answer a question with all the extra pipul.
    Its a yes or no answer. And if it depends then say-so with out mishing in other things which are irrelevent to the question. The question was: is a person who is mechallel shabbos (b’mayzid) is he also considered an apikorus?
    Yes?, no? , it depends?

    #1586026

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Meant to say “without” all the extra pilpul

    #1586037

    Avi K
    Participant

    Takes, it depends. If he admits that he is wrong but claims weakness he is not. If he denies that there is an obligation to keep Shabbat he is. Rambam discusses this in his intro to Perek Chelek.

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