Late for davening and Davening late

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  • #618548

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I am still amazed that there are certain people who come consistently late to shul or daven Shacharis at outrageously late hours. If you are among them, I would like to know why?

    #1187814

    shebbesonian
    Participant

    We are not as holy as you and have nothing better to do with our time, besides for wonder about other people’s aveiros.

    #1187815

    Bored_on_the_Job
    Participant

    I am fascinated by these types of comments.

    Why are you amazed? Does it bother you that people are doing (what you judge to be) something wrong?

    There are hundreds of thousands of assimilated jews. What bothers you more the latecomers or these people intermarrying and not keeping torah?

    My speculation is that the latter doesnt bother you so much bec u dont feel that they should be doing better. However you have concluded (perhaps erroneously) that these latecomers should know better.

    Just my two cents – feel free to disasgree

    #1187816

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Late is a relative term. What do you consider late?

    #1187817

    flatbusher
    Participant

    What aveiros are you talking about?

    #1187818

    ever thought people might need to babysit their children while their wife is at work until the time to bring their children to the babysitter?

    or perhaps an early morning job of a baker every day from 2am until 10am do you have a better time for him to daven?

    many other reasons

    #1187819

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Maybe they were abducted by aliens and didn’t manage to escape until after sof zman krias shma.

    #1187820

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Yes, it is true. I am unfortunately one of them. And it comes from my lack of appreciation of Davening itself. At times I strengthen myself and for a period of time I do come in time, sometimes even a bit early to open a Sefer, but then eventually it wears off. Chaval. I think it’s one of the things that need chizuk.

    #1187821

    Abba_S
    Participant

    Some people have a different work schedule such as working nights or start working early in the morning and daven either after work or lunch time whenever they get a chance. Other may have different zmaninim perhaps they go on Pacific time so when it’s 12:00 in NYC it’s 8:00 AM in the west coast. At least they come and daven would you rather they don’t.

    #1187823

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Abba, there’s a three hour difference between NYC and the West Coast.

    #1187824

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    We have a regular at our daily minyan who is consistently late for shacharis. He is a widower with young children and has to drive them to school before coming to shul. We applaud his dedication

    #1187825

    Abba_S
    Participant

    just wait until they change the clock

    #1187826

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I merely was looking at the psychological aspect. I make no judgments and am aware of different schedules and obligations at home. I think we all know the importance of davening, just trying to understand how people view it. Some of the harsh comments really don’t surprise me. And this has nothing to do with concern for assimilated Jews. Maybe we all should take davening more seriously. Gutte kvital

    #1187827

    Joseph
    Participant

    We’ve heard all the excuses why some come late.

    How about those that pack out of shul early before davening is over, aleinu and kaddish complete? What are their excuses?

    Hungry, late for work, couldn’t come to an earlier minyan?

    #1187828

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Hungry, late for work, couldn’t come to an earlier minyan?”

    Could be any on the above. Other possibilities I can think of are: upset stomach, not feeling well, has to go home to help wife, some other chesed or responsibility that has to be taken care of right away or some kind of medical condition that neccesitates eating or taking medication at specific times.

    #1187829

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I feel the same about people who leave early, but in some cases I know why they leave early. If you are already davening at the earliest possible time and need to travel to work some distance, I can understand that.

    #1187830

    Agantzyoorpeerim
    Participant

    Im sorry i am so late in my response but I came late to davening so I stayed late and I feel like i am always late even to my own parties. I guess the latter statement proves that better late than never!!!

    #1187831

    Joseph
    Participant

    And those that leave early to work from a minyan that is *not* the earliest minyan?

    #1187832

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Maybe their wives need a lot of help.

    #1187833

    Agantzyoorpeerim
    Participant

    Joseph huh?

    #1187834

    Abba_S
    Participant

    The only time I resent them is when we need them to make a Minyan to start or at the end if someone needs to say Kaddish. Otherwise it’s between them and Hashem.

    #1187835

    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, do we prioritize our spouses over our Creator, Father and King?

    #1187836

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Someone who leaves early shows he’s impatient with the Davening. He brings a certain “kaltkite” to the oylam. If he has a reason, I think he should do all in his means to make them known, so people shouldn’t suspect him, and so that this attitude shuold not rub off on the Tzibbur.

    I see pretty often, people who start to take off their tefillin and taleisim long before the end of Davening, as a rote, because they feel so impatient. Only so that at the last possible second they can make a dash for it. To where? Nowhere in general JUST AWAY!! Away and out! Is that the proper attitude to be displayed towards Hakodosh Boruch Hu?

    They’re missing the main point of the very last Tefillah (that they mumble with one paw in, one out), that of ?????. How we are most grateful and indebted to HaShem for the OPPORTUNITY to be able to praise Him. They are literally missing it!!

    C’mon, ??? ???? ??!!

    #1187837

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Helping your spouse is part of serving Hashem. A very important part, actually.

    Obviously, it depends on the situation, and there is a reason most people don’t leave shul early to help their wives. But there could be a situation in which it is super-important that the husband help his wife and it’s more important than staying in shul.

    For example, maybe he’s trying to avoid getting divorced.

    #1187838

    takahmamash
    Participant

    How about those that pack out of shul early before davening is over, aleinu and kaddish complete? What are their excuses?

    How about those that come to minyan late and then leave early? I guess they can pack all their davening into 15 minutes.

    #1187839

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LF: Just a reminder that what you state is for Nusach Sfard. I daven Nussach Ashkenaz so the last tefillah is the “Shir Shel Yom” not Aleinu.

    Why do people leave early? For some it is car pool issues. Their sons have to be in Yeshiva at a certain time and the school does not provide bus service. The fathers have to drive them to yeshiva. For others it is their work schedule. They may not have a minyan near where they work so they daven first with a minyan and then leave to go to work.

    #1187840

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Also, I don’t think a spouse is something to be prioritized altogether. “Ishto k’gufo.” Does one prioritize himself?

    #1187841

    Chortkov
    Participant

    lilmod, do we prioritize our spouses over our Creator, Father and King?

    Although much can be said about those who do leave early for ulterior motives, your point isn’t a valid one. When you say it like that, obviously your duty to HKB”H takes precedence to any other duty. But the duty to others can often be the Rotzoin Hashem.

    Also, I don’t think a spouse is something to be prioritized altogether. “Ishto k’gufo.” Does one prioritize himself?

    Of course HKB”Hs Will comes before a persons own. One certainly doesn’t prioritize himself. Batel Retzoincho Mipnei Retzonoi…

    #1187842

    Joseph
    Participant

    One places Hashem above himself.

    #1187843

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Of course HKB”Hs Will comes before a persons own. One certainly doesn’t prioritize himself. Batel Retzoincho Mipnei Retzonoi…”

    “One places Hashem above himself.”

    True of course. But in the above context, I wasn’t sure if it was relevant. When I wrote that he might have to leave to take care of himself, no one questioned his prioritizing his own needs.

    You can only serve Hashem if you take care of yourself, and since “Ishto k’gufo” the same is true regarding taking care of your wife.

    Bottom line: Man’s only purpose in life is to serve Hashem. Sometimes that is best done by taking care of his wife or himself. It depends on the situation. If we’re talking about other people, we should assume the best.

    #1187844

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    btw, I only made that comment about “ishto k’gufo” because your comment about priorities reminded me of a conversation I had with someone many years ago that really upset me, but I realize now your comment was not meant the same way at all.

    In the course of a conversation with a teacher regarding someone he had set me up with, I mentioned that I would want to marry someone who considers me more important than his learning and his response was, “He has you and he has his learning; why should one be more important than the other.” I found that really offensive.

    It’s possible he didn’t understand what I meant and didn’t understand why his comment was offensive, and it’s possible you won’t either. It may have something to do with the difference between how men and women understand things, but whatever.

    In any case, I realize now that that had nothing to do with your comment.

    #1187845

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Regardless of why you made the comment, it’s not correct. Ishto k’gufo doesn’t mean that when one does something for their spouse it’s not considered a chessed.

    #1187846

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    My point was that I think your spouse’s needs should be at least as important to you as your own (as in, “my knee is hurting us”).

    #1187847

    Joseph
    Participant

    “In the course of a conversation with a teacher”

    Maybe I was that teacher?!

    j/k

    #1187848

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Maybe I was that teacher?!”

    Are you a teacher, and do you remember having such a conversation?

    Anyhow, I ruled out that possibility.

    #1187849

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    More importantly, would you have said such a thing?

    #1187850

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes and Yes!!

    j/k

    #1187851

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I hope it’s not you, because if it is you, you owe me a trillion and a half apologies!!!! (not just for that segment of a conversation – there was a lot more than that!).

    #1187852

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I already figured out it can’t possibly be you.

    But I’m not sure if you responded to my question of: “More importantly, would you have said such a thing?”

    btw, that teacher is one of the people I have in mind when I say Tefilas Zaka erev Yom Kippur. (yes, I know that one should try to forgive everyone even if they don’t ask mechila, but I’m not on that level, and I gave him a million chances to apologize. It was his choice not to).

    #1187853

    golfer
    Participant

    LU, I’m getting a little confused trying to figure out what you’re saying.

    Does one prioritize himself (or- oneself) ?

    Sure, I put myself, and my own needs, on my list of priorities. I wouldn’t be breathing otherwise.

    There are a lot of other people on the list of priorities most people have. The more the merrier, most would agree.

    We all start with parents (though they don’t make it onto a list of priorities until we develop some cognizance and a sense of responsibility). That’s an important priority, as in Kibbud Av v’Eim. Siblings. Friends, some closer than others. Spouse- that’s a major one- ishto k’gufo, as another poster mentioned, and a wife has a major obligation to keep her spouse on that list as well. Your spouse’s parents may or may not be included in the Kibbus Av v’Eim obligation, but they’ll be somewhere on the list too. Then (Mazel Tov!) your children park themselves prominently on your list of priorities and make sure you don’t forget they’re there.

    We all learn to do a complicated juggling act, without chas v’shalom dropping any of the balls. We weigh our own needs and those of all the other people on the list, and act accordingly. I prioritize my own needs, and won’t, for example, give up a few nights of sleep because I have a lonely friend who wants to stay on the phone with me until 3 am. Or because I’m baking cakes for my best friend’s vort. I will, however, give up many night’s sleep for a child who isn’t feeling well, or needs 1 and 4 am feedings.

    Your husband’s Torah learning is a very important thing on that list. For you and for him! Between the two of you, you’ll figure out how to make sure he fits your needs as well as his learning into your daily lives. He doesn’t necessarily have to take care of one to the detriment of the other.

    #1187854

    Joseph
    Participant

    That question only appeared after my yes response, so it was addressing the previous two questions.

    Obviously I don’t know what the background of these interactions between the two of you, so take my question as a general one not an argument, but how do you know that he objectively wronged you and owes you a request for forgiveness rather than, perhaps, his perspective having some validity and perhaps you misunderstood him or even he gave you deserved mussar or tochacha?

    #1187855

    golfer
    Participant

    Am I the only one wondering how 2 people (LU and– me!) managed to take up so much space on a thread that technically has nothing to do with them?

    I don’t actually show up in shul (on time or not) every morning.

    And I don’t even daven with a minyan (most of the time).

    I expect same goes for you, LU.

    Apologies for taking over a thread from the ones who, rain or shine, snow or sleet or hail, never miss a morning, or evening. Even if they’re not always exactly on time, the credit is theirs.

    #1187856

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Golfer – I’m not sure if you followed the whole thread. It sounds like you might have missed the context of my comments. I was the one who said “ishto k’gufo” and everything else was an explanation of what I meant by that.

    #1187857

    golfer
    Participant

    OK, LU.

    I stand corrected then.

    I was curious why you were so offended by that long ago teacher that you can’t see your way to forgiving.

    But I wasn’t there and realize I might just not get it…

    #1187858

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Joseph – sorry, that’s not what happened here. I didn’t go into all the details, but he was very abusive (I definitely would have divorced him if I had been married to him, which Boruch Hashem, I wasn’t).

    Any misunderstanding that took place was on his part and was a result of his listening to and believing motzi shem ra about me, and then hearing everything I said in the context of the motzi shem ra he had heard and believed.

    By the way, that is one of the worst things about L”H and Motzi Shem Ra. If someone hears something about you that is either untrue or is technically true but the context is missing, the chances are they will believe it as it was told, and then they end up hearing things you say differently than what you meant because they are starting out with certain misconceptions.

    That is exactly what happened here.

    And he is to blame, because he should have:

    1. listened to me when I told him that what he had heard about me wasn’t true.

    2. paid attention to what I really was saying

    3. Most importantly – not spent an hour at a time (literally – I timed it) screaming at me and saying really abusive things.

    I did try many times to discuss it with him afterwards and to give him an opportunity to apologize which he didn’t do.

    Personally, I think it is completely inappropriate for a teacher to scream at an (adult) student, especially if the teacher is a man and the student is a girl, and I think he should have been fired. The problem is that in that school, such things were considered acceptable, which I think is a serious problem.

    The only one who deserved mussar and tochacha here was him.

    #1187859

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Golfer – I hadn’t gone into details. I just mentioned one small detail – I didn’t mean that was the reason I don’t forgive him – it was a small part of a very long story.

    #1187860

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “And I don’t even daven with a minyan (most of the time).

    I expect same goes for you, LU.”

    Lol. I actually went to Shul for Vasikin on Hoshana Rabba. That was only because I had stayed up trying to say Tehillim (in between spacing out), so I figured I may as well. But other than Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur and one recent Friday night, I don’t think I have been to shul in years. And even on Rosh Hashana & Yom Kippur, I took a lot of breaks.

    #1187861

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Golfer & Joseph- I just chapped what your comments were in response to. I hadn’t gone into details, so based on what I wrote, I guess it was hard to understand. Without going into all the details, the point was that I was feeling exceedingly overwhelmed with my responsibilities to my family and was not thinking about my own needs at all. At some point I started to realize that was not such a good idea and that I was in danger of collapsing if I didn’t start to think about myself, and I realized that I needed to start thinking about my own needs once in a while. This was a big chidush to me and not something that I was used to doing, so it was very hard for me, especially since my family’s financial situation was really bad and no matter what I did, it wasn’t enough, so I felt very guilty spending any time doing things for myself (like sleeping and eating). But I knew that it was something important for me to work on if I wanted to survive.

    At around the same time, this teacher decided to pressure me to go out with and marry someone who I couldn’t stand and who was totally not the kind of person I was looking for. The main reason he seemed to want me to go out with and marry him was so that I could support him in Kollel even though I had no way of doing so, and even though I didn’t really want to be going out just yet at all, and certainly not with someone who was expecting me to support him in Kollel for the rest of his life which was something I couldn’t do.

    I tried explaining this to my teacher (both before during and after going out with the guy the 5 times he pressurred me to go out with him),

    and that just led to his screaming at me and saying really abusive things about how horrible I was because I was poor and had no way of supporting this guy in Kollel who I didn’t even want to be going out with in the first place.

    I was under tremendous pressure as it was and the last thing I needed was the additional pressure that I had to marry someone and support him in Kollel for the rest of his life when I was having such a hard time managing as it was! And I was just working on convincing myself that it’s okay to take time to breathe once in a while!

    In the course of one of numerous conversations with this teacher (revolving around his trying to pressure me to marry this guy and/or trying to making me feel bad about the fact that I had no way of supporting someone in Kollel), I mentioned something about how I was having a hard time thinking about my own needs once in a while and not just my (current) family’s needs, and likewise, when I get married, I will need to marry someone who is not just marrying me so that I can support him in Kollel, but will care about my needs and encourage me to take care of my needs (such as sleeping). He responded by screaming at me and telling me what a horrible person I am for thinking that I am more important than my husband’s learning, etc.

    I guess that wasn’t so short, but I hope that sort of explains things.

    #1187862

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My point was that I think your spouse’s needs should be at least as important to you as your own (as in, “my knee is hurting us”).

    That’s not what you said. You said,

    Also, I don’t think a spouse is something to be prioritized altogether. “Ishto k’gufo.” Does one prioritize himself?

    #1187863

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    DY – I’m very tired, but it sounds the same to me. I’m not sure why you think not? Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. Apparently, I thought I was being misunderstood which was why I rephrased.

    How do you think the two statements are different.

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