December 1, 2022 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #2144036
with the recent articles debating the age gap theory , with respect to both groups of research , both are sincere , i noticed that the group looking at the bais yakov’s graduating classes was done in 2009 , i wonder anecdotally are we doing better has anything changed in 12 years
so its easy ask your sister or relatives and put in the data just post school name , & year how many in the grade and how many engaged or married – we are looking at 5 years – 2016-2020December 1, 2022 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #2144058GadolhadorahParticipant
Meir: Is this your idea of a “scientific” survey or just an effort to resuscitate the shidduch crisis scam?December 1, 2022 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2144065
as of DEC 1- 2022 based on asking a graduate of that class, in no specific order
YOB 2016 -42/ 37 B”H
mesilas 2016- 49/40 B”H
bais brocho 2017- 74/61 B”H
Tomer devorah 2017- 60/55 B”HDecember 1, 2022 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #2144066
GODOL hadorah: nothing scientific … no scamming … current data is helpful .. i dont claim to have the answers
but when i saw 2 conflicting studies both sincere i was curios to know anecdotally whats the current numbersDecember 1, 2022 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #2144074
Meir, you can’t mix/compare Litvish and Chasidish.December 1, 2022 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2144076
BYA 2015- 60/46 b”h
BYA 2017- 60/41 b”hDecember 1, 2022 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #2144111
interesting. could you also collect ages of both, numbers over time, year of marriage (so that we can compare different years), and similar numbers for boys.December 1, 2022 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2144113SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
Please read “An End to Shidduch Resumes” by Rabbi Chananya Weissman:
www. chananyaweissman. com/article.php?id=89December 1, 2022 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #2144127
always ask you are more than welcome to make a few calls for this blog lets keep it simple , please put in some data
if people respond than we will expand the questionsDecember 1, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2144138ubiquitinParticipant
“Please read “An End to Shidduch Resumes””
spare yourself, its a silly gripe by an embittered soul looking for something to blame his troubles onDecember 1, 2022 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #2144150
many BYs and loal shuls put out newsletters with mazal tovs. You can probably count there. Record year of publication and year of graduationDecember 2, 2022 8:11 am at 8:11 am #2144216Sam KleinParticipant
THERE IS NO SHIDDUCH CRISES
Hashem already setup your sons and everyone else’s son/daughter zivug 40 days before they were even born forget about the fact that now they are holding at around 20 or so years later since born. Hashem has their zivug waiting for them and can send it to your son/daughter immediately but is just waiting for each person involved in shidduchim to do their RUCHNIUS hishtadlus of Bitachon and Emunah(faith and trust in Hashem) together with Tefillos/Prayers.
Are YOU doing your RUCHNIUS hishtadlus? Not just your gashmius hishtadlus of dating and speaking to shadchanim etc….?
Start turning directly to Hashem for help in all your needs especially shidduchim that they say is a bigger miracle to a shidduch then the splitting of the Yam suf.December 2, 2022 8:12 am at 8:12 am #2144228HaimyParticipant
These type of unscientific “studies” devalue the prestige of a getting a doctorate in the eyes of the Yeshiva community. Not good PR for Touro.December 2, 2022 9:21 am at 9:21 am #2144232
sam question? this is a callous answer preaching super madreigos in bitachon that most are far from & you dont preach these answers in other areas of your life like health & business ( do you go to manhatten doctors for serious stuff or do u visit your local urgent care..)
im not sure if my rosh hashana davening is with the intensity of a regular mincha of many older singles
bh 3 of my kids got married 123 but i feel the tzar hatzibur & the gedolim dont know what to say hosheeva shofteinu kevarishonaDecember 2, 2022 9:22 am at 9:22 am #2144234akupermaParticipant
Given that the textbook “How to lie with statistics” seems to be the basis of most statistical discussions, the best way to evaluate a statistical hypothesis is to test it against real world data. If there is a serious “shiduch problem” (frum people unable to find spouses), it should be resulting in frum elementary schools having a problem of a shrinking pool of students, and having difficulty filling classrooms,since it our community, the minhag is that women start having children only after a successful shidduch. Furthermore, that can’t be faked, and is easy to confirm. If there is a “shidduch” crisis, frum schools should be closing, teachers should be being laid off and schools will be charging lower tuition since they are desperate to attract a shrinking pool of students; if this is not happening, it is highly unlikely there is a “shidduch crisis”. Note that everyone has a “shidduch” problem until they get married, and except for Adam ha-Rishon, whose problem was indeed unique, these tend to be resolved in a very mundane way.December 2, 2022 10:20 am at 10:20 am #2144262
lets define crisis; hashem made a persons journey thru life in stages , from birth , teething, walking toilet training , reading, bar mitzva… high school.. marraige and beyond these are stepping stones that lead one in to each other … gears that turn … a CRISIS is when any stage in life is stalled signifigantly for a reasonable percent of the population ( kefi’ the culturel norms for that shevet or circle of yidden) as an example if a boy / girl “should” be in camp and there is not enough beds for the tzibur to register thats a crisis…if somehow there wouldnt be a new crop of young mohalim and u can barely get a mohel at 2pm thats a crisis even if its on the 8th day & before shkiah….
so if seminary is over and you start your job the next stage is dating & marraige, SO HOW LONG SHOULD THE TRANSITON TAKE BEFORE YOU CALL IT A CRISIS , i think more than 2 years is a crisis, what do you think?December 2, 2022 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2144266
There are a few issues with the study:
1) It doesn’t factor in the fact that single girls oftentimes marry divorced men, preventing divorced girls from finding a shidduch;
2) It doesn’t factor in that fact that FFB girls often marry Baalei Teshuva, preventing Baalos Teshuva from finding a shidduch (the study didn’t study Baalei Teshuva);
3) When girls are single for many years surrounded by secular people – e.g., working in a law firm for twenty years – they no longer categorize themselves as “Yeshivish,” considering themselves either Modern Orthodox. So if data were to show that “100% of Yeshivish girls get married,” it’s a tautology. Girls who aren’t married at 40 no longer consider themselves “Yeshivish” per se (e.g., they wouldn’t want to marry a learning boy).
4) There really are two Yeshivish communities. There are Touro College families and there are BMG (freezer) families. Touro College types use the internet; BMG types use it less so, and their computers are filtered. So when you do an INTERNET survey which largely excludes the BMG-freezer types, you are omitting the community that one would assume suffers the most from the shidduch imbalance.
5) As the Chofetz Chaim says, (Nidcei Yisrael, perek 25), people who are single are prone to die young. So if data shows “95% of Yeshivish people are married by 40” we should consider the fact that some single people are no longer with us, caused by the fact that they couldn’t find a shidduch.
6) Even taking the study’s conclusions, the study points to a serious issue: the ultimate age gap is around two years, despite the fact that in the Yeshivish community there’s a two year gap. This is good news, but also is bad news. Good news, because there’s less of an imbalance. Bad news, because it highlights the fact that girls have to wait to EXTRA years, in addition to the regular waiting that boys go through. These two additional years apply to everyone, on average, although of course some way 6 EXTRA years, while others way zero EXTRA years. This additional waiting is devastating to girls, not knowing whether they will ever get married.December 2, 2022 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2144269Jewish12345Participant
This is so stupid and a waste of time Meir seems to not have anything else important to do everydayDecember 2, 2022 10:58 am at 10:58 am #2144274🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
You aren’t even a part of this discussion. Why jump in just to insult someone?December 2, 2022 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #2144288AviraDeArahParticipant
Are, i think you’re making a fair bit of assumptions. Many people work among goyim and do not in any way associate with modern orthodoxy, to name an important example. If by contrast you mean they are not willing to date a boy who is single and learning full time for the same 20 years that they’ve been working… That’s more of an age issue, and they might not feel that they’re on the same wavelength, but many such people would be open to men who are in klei kodesh.December 2, 2022 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #2144302
True, I am not claiming that all, or even most, girls who work in a law firm for 20 years automatically wouldn’t classify themselves as “Yeshivish.” But it does chip away at the percentages.
Indeed, part of the problem is the word “Yeshivish.” Many wouldn’t necessarily classify themselves as Modern Orthodox, if not for the fact that the only alternate term offered was “Yeshivish,” a term that they wouldn’t apply for themselves either. Remember, many girls never go to shul or any shiur. Their connection to Yeshivish orthodoxy is very tenuous, and depends on being surrounded by other Yeshivish people, which obviously doesn’t exist in the law firm.
I spoke to the lead author of the study about a year ago and he mentioned that THE central factor of the shidduch crisis is the fact that as people remain single, they longer classify themselves as Yeshivish.December 2, 2022 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #2144323
Are Roster & Meir G:
Please share a very detailed explanation of what YOUR SOLUTION to this problem is.
Thank youDecember 3, 2022 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #2144329GadolhadorahParticipant
“girls who work in a law firm for 20 years automatically wouldn’t classify themselves as “Yeshivish.”
AR: Nor would they classify themselves as “girls”. If you’ve been working as an attorney in a law firm for 20 years, you are likely in your mid-40s; even an LA would be in her late 30s/early 40s. Either way you are a WOMAN. Otherwise, I would agree that most frum women working in a law firm would likely identify as MO.December 3, 2022 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #2144387maskildoreshParticipant
Why oh why can’t you all have a CONVERSATION ?
One person’s statement providing a catalyst for the next one to pronounce a vitriolic counter statement , often replete with insulting and hyperbolic language is not a conversation.
A request for anecdotal reports is not an accusation, not a claim to know the truth or to have a solution , not a deeply held Hashkafic position regarding Hishtadlus, the efficacy of Tefilla, nor a claim to define the term “yeshivish “. Sheesh.
Polite discourse , listening to what the person is saying and not accusing him or her of what he hasn’t said, responding with measured words and logic – try it – here and everywhere! You’ll be surprised what a difference it can make!December 4, 2022 8:44 am at 8:44 am #2144474CTLAWYERParticipant
Regarding these girls/women who have worked 20 years in a law firm and are still single.
Mrs. CTL died 3 months ago, I have already been approached by shadchanim about 4 of these females.
I am not interested in remarriage at this time and certainly not to someone younger than my own older daughters.
That said, some of these past their 20s females need to open themselves up to the idea of making a marriage, home or family OOT. It adds to the available pool of single men.December 4, 2022 9:38 am at 9:38 am #2144492
The solution to the delay that women suffer from is for men to start shiddum at a younger ages. The way to do this is to award bochurim who are the first in their class to get married. For example, if you are the first boy to get married from Rebbi Ploni’s yeshiva, you get 100K, the second bochur gets 30K. This will keep pushing bochurim to start shidduchim younger; if they meet the right girl they can bag 100K. There is enough money in klal yisroel to support this endeavor (there are 20 top Yeshivas; if every Yeshiva costs 130K per year times 20, it would cost 2.6 million per year; Dirshu and Adopt-a-Kollel EACH have yearly budgets that are ten times that).December 4, 2022 9:59 am at 9:59 am #2144506
On the somewhere brighter side, you’re making Are Roster (see comment above) happy by alleviating his #1 takeaway from the study; namely that single girls who marry divorced/widower men take away shidduchim from divorced girls.
That vital point made,
editedDecember 4, 2022 10:07 am at 10:07 am #2144532
Are Roster, you sound like the matrona who argued w/ Rabbi Akiva on how easy it is to marry people off. Like her, you may also push the divorce rates up also! Telshe Rosh yeshiva back in the 70s answers the question what causes family problems with “bochurim marrying too young”.December 4, 2022 10:39 am at 10:39 am #2144549
Only the first two per Yeshiva get a monetary prize? That’ll be enough? Afterwards the rush might peter out.
And every small Yeshiva and large Yeshiva will get the same two?December 4, 2022 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #2144573
Once a couple of bochurim in the shiur are married young, it a) becomes NORMAL to get married young, and b) other bochurim will follow suit. The reason why bochurim start dating at 23 is because “everyone” dates at 23. Once a small, but significant, percentage start shidduchim, the rest will follow suit.
Always Ask Questions:
That Telzer Rosh Yeshiva wasn’t aware of recent data which shows that Chassidim have a lower divorce rate than other Yidden, despite – or perhaps even due to – getting married young. Had he been aware of that statistic, I doubt he would have maintained his position. Perhaps that Rosh Yeshiva would have agreed that in the internet age – where many bochurim become addicts between 18 and 23 – which itself causes divorces, we should get married at 17.December 4, 2022 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #2144575n0mesorahParticipant
My deepest apologies to all the age-gap proponents, but your time is up. You have had two decades to prove your point. You claimed to have all the data to back it up. Yet, you couldn’t ever confirm that a proper survey was transformed to an actual study. The founding ‘fact’ has never been demonstrated to be the driving factor of the ‘crisis’. Graphs with no real mathematics, was not enough to convince the masses. And of course, how your ‘solution’ is not at odds with the age-gap ‘fact’ of the ‘crisis’ has never been addressed. Enjoy a nice break, while some other crowd tries to educate the public without trying to be educational. You could use the time to catch your breath before yelling at the sky again.
with much sympathy,
All Yidden That Can Manage Their Own Lives.
PS If you are anxious that yeshiva bochurim may continue to learn in the interim, there are many other groups dedicated to stopping them. You can join them for moral support. They will be glad to take you in because they are in desperate need of your faux-sincere facade.December 4, 2022 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #2144584
Do you anticipate that at some future point you’d want a shidduch? What general age range would you consider, and why wouldn’t you consider below the lower end of your range?December 4, 2022 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #2144614CTLAWYERParticipant
I had a long and very happy marriage. I know that our life end is determined by HaShem, but as the members of my family in the USA the last 150 years tend to live into their mid90s, I would not like to be alone the next quarter century.
That doesn’t mean I am open to a shadchan soliciting my business. In a year or so I might be open to
I have not set up parameters or a wish list, but don’t imagine interest in a woman less than 60 years of age. I definitely am not going to be looking to have more children at this stage of life, so it would be unfair and unwise to marry a woman in a lesser age group.
The companionship and friendship needed to sustain a marriage in retirement years calls for similar life experience and age and backgrounds.
That said, I am sure that my children, siblings and their spouses and in-laws are already discussing possible candidates. I am in no rushDecember 4, 2022 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #2144743☕️coffee addictParticipant
This isn’t your father’s CR anymore (I’m sorry to say)December 4, 2022 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #2144758☕️coffee addictParticipant
That said, some of these past their 20s females need to open themselves up to the idea of making a marriage, home or family OOT. It adds to the available pool of single men.
Totally agree, just additionally I would say date ooters even if those ooters are willing to live in NY
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.