June 1, 2015 3:04 am at 3:04 am #615766
There is a shiur with Rabbi Mizrachi saying anyone who is a lawyer or judge in secular court is not only doing something assur but cant be counted in a minyan. Any basis for this?
Second question is- is it a myth that there are Jewish lawyers who cant find work after 2 years of trying? I have yet to meet an unemployed Jewish lawyer, do such people exist? Is it a bad idea to invest in a sub-par law school such as Queens Law?June 1, 2015 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1085611👑RebYidd23Participant
There are Jewish lawyers who can’t find work after 2 years of trying.June 1, 2015 3:28 am at 3:28 am #1085612charliehallParticipant
Rabbi Mizrachi has said a lot of over the top things in the past so I would not follow him on anything without checking with my own rav first.June 1, 2015 4:01 am at 4:01 am #1085613popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Where’d he get semicha?June 1, 2015 4:51 am at 4:51 am #1085615☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Ben Barber?June 1, 2015 5:26 am at 5:26 am #1085616
Rav Yaakov Ariel differentiates between civil suits on the one hand and criminal law (mishpat hamelech) and administrative law (where the court is in effect an appellate bureaucracy) on the other hand. He also allows people who are knowledgeable in Halacha and can apply it their decisions to be judges (similarly many observant Jewish lawyers perform a great service by writing contracts and wills that are valid according to both secular law, which many poskim rule has the force of either dina d’malchuta or minhag hamedina in commercial matters, and Halacha.June 1, 2015 5:49 am at 5:49 am #1085617YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
popa you are either very bored or very annoying.June 1, 2015 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1085618akupermaParticipant
A “lawyer” would never be a shailoh. All a lawyer is, be definition, is someone with expertise in how a legal system (or systems) work who gives people advice on dealing with the legal system. Given that one often deals with legal systems, that is a useful skill. If you are inclinced to help evil people do more evil, it is a great opportunity to make money by going off the derekh. However knowing about the legal systems we deal with is not an issue. A “judge”, especially in Medinat Yisrael, would be a serious shailoh, especially if one holds the medinah to have any halachic status since if you hold that Medinat Yisrael is a Jewish state (as opposed to a goyish state with many Jews living there), there is a problem since its legal system is totally not based on Jewish law and on most matters works contrary to halacha. One should also remember that have a just legal system is one of the mitsvos of the Bnei Noach.
If you think going to a law school is a meal ticket to great riches you should stay in yeshiva until you become cleverer and more mature. Even under ideal conditions, a degree from a top law school (in New York City, that would be NYU and Columbia) didn’t guarantee you anything. Remember that the better law schools are much more expensive that the rest. Also if one plans to do something other than “big law” (such as hang out a shingle in a frum community, helping your neighbors with their legal issues) going to a name law school isn’t worth the extra cost. If you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. If you want to get rich, review the halachic definition of who is rich (its in Pirke Avos).June 1, 2015 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1085619CTLAWYERParticipant
I have no idea why some maggid shiur would pontificate this way. Who do Yeshivos come to when they have zoning issues, want government money for feeding students, special education funds, etc.? They come to us lawyers…and they expect us to do their bidding for free.
As for Jewish lawyers who can’t find a job for 2 years>>>this applies to non-Jews as well. The field is over-saturated. The return on your tuition investment, as much as 150K in a top school is not guarranteed.
When I retire my children or grandchildren will not continue the firm.June 1, 2015 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #1085620akupermaParticipant
In Eretz Yisrael, it would be a serious shailoh being a judge or an officer of the courts IF YOU HOLD THAT THE MEDINAH REQUIRED TO BE JEWISH which is what many people hold. It would be similar to be a lawyer or judge in Communist Russia or Nazi Germany. Can you serve as an official of an evil regime?
Law school can be quite cheap, especially at many of the non-elite law schools which liberally give merit scholarships If you don’t plan to go into “big law”, there really isn’t any need to go to fancy law school. A degree from Brooklyn or Buffalo is just as useful as one from Columbia IF YOU PLAN TO HANG OUT A SHINGLE.June 1, 2015 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1085622
Akuperma, I think that my post answers your problem. However, to clarify further, their is a basic law (the basic laws form a quasi-constitutional framework) that states that when a judge cannot find a solution in positive law or deduction therefrom he should look to the principles of justice in Jewish law. Obviously, a judge who is knowledgeable in Jewish law would use it to bring more Halacha into Israeli law (in fact, the champion at that is Judge Neil Hendel of the Supreme Court, who was in Rav Soloveichik’s shiur even though he was not officially enrolled in YU). Moreover, the only real problem, as I posted, is civil suits so if one does not want a judgeship then he can simply specialize in criminal or administrative law.June 1, 2015 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1085623nfgo3Member
The opening poster has asked a good question about “investing” in law school, any law school. There is no legal requirement that law schools – Harvard or CUNY or anything in between – give reliable and meaningful data that would enable a prospective investor/enrollee to determine that typical return on investment for a particular law school. I have never heard anything good about CUNY, and lots of bad things, but CUNY cannot be trusted to give you the information you need to make a sound investment decision. And if you do not think that any educational program is an investment decision, you need to go back to school, regardless of the ROI.June 1, 2015 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1085624CTLAWYERParticipant
Frankly I’m not in Eretz Yisrael. As my handle indicates I’m a lawyer in Connecticut.
I’m not a judge…no reason to take a cut in income. In CT all attorneys are officers of the court. Most attorneys never go to court, they process paperwork and mediate between their clients and other attorneys and their clients.
I respectfully disagree that a degree from a second or third tier law school is just as useful as one from an Ivy League school if all you want to do is hang out a shingle.
A lawyer in a large firm with many Top Tier Law School attorneys has that yichus to stand behind. A independent who hangs out a shingle is often judged by prospective clients by the diploma on the wall…and those prospective clients have more faith in an Ivy League lawyer than one from a cut rate institution.June 2, 2015 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1085626June 2, 2015 3:57 am at 3:57 am #1085627besalelParticipant
Godwin’s law of the Coffee Room: as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of the zionist jewish debate approaches 1″
Akperma gets points for both by comparing israel to the nazis. also the comment was quite vile.June 2, 2015 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1085628
CTLAWYER, I would imagine that if someone is involved in politics or has relatives who have businesses he can get referrals. Once he has built up a reputation no one will look at is diploma. I would also imagine that being in he top of a second-tier school is at least as good as being at the bottom of a top-tier so far as salaried jobs are concerned. The big problem is paying off the student loans. Forty years ago law school tuition was around $2K so someone could afford to take a public service job, make a decent salary and get practical experience. For someone who is interested in law but is not top level it might make more sense to get a paralegal certificate.June 2, 2015 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1085629
“I have never heard anything good about CUNY, and lots of bad things”
Are you referring to all cuny schools or just cuny law?
I wonder why so many frum Jews are still going into law after all the halachic and financial issues.June 2, 2015 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1085630zahavasdadParticipant
CUNY Law school is bad, CUNY itself is greatJune 4, 2015 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1085631abogadoParticipant
I never go to a minyan, there is just no time for all the dilly dally in that goes on there. So no problem not counting me.June 5, 2015 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1085632
“there is just no time for all the dilly dally in that goes on there.”
I know in the secular courts they never waist peoples time and there is no dilly dallying. Everything in secular courts gets done very speedy- probably everything is wrapped up within 1-4 days of the suspected crime or offence. I wish our minyanim were more like the courts so there was no dillydallying.June 5, 2015 4:52 am at 4:52 am #1085633
Newbee, there is not enough talking?June 5, 2015 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1085634yeshivadanMember
the pirkei avos says there are rich and poor people in every profession.
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