Learner/Earner

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  • #614879

    flatbusher
    Participant

    It seems to me that shadchanim have little interest or resources to find learner/earners for girls looking for them. Has anyone had success with a shadchan who knows young men who plan to learn say 2-3 years and then either go to college for a profession or learn a trade so he can eventually support a family?

    #1060195

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why do you think this is so? If they were easy to find and set up, why wouldn’t they?

    #1060196

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I don’t have an answer, which is why I am asking. But since it is easier to set up longtime learners, I guess they focus on that.

    #1060197

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why is that easier?

    #1060198

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Because a lot of boys are sitting and learning with no future plans and young women returning for seminary are looking for that type.

    #1060199

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So you’re suggesting that there are relatively few learner/earners and girls looking for them.

    I actually think there are few learner/earners, but a lot of girls looking for one.

    #1060200

    flatbusher
    Participant

    That could be the case, but based on what I hear, just about all of my daughters’ friends from high school and seminary are looking for long-term learners. Learners/earners are not considered serious learners because they plan to work, and apparently that turns off a number of girls.

    #1060201

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Let’s see what they’re looking for two years back from seminary (those who aren’t married).

    Fact is, regardless of your or my hashkafah on this, if a boy is serious about his learning, he likely is planning to learn full time for more than 2-3 years, so they’re probably right, if they really want serious learners, to look in that direction.

    #1060202

    flatbusher
    Participant

    On the other hand, without a future plan, what happens after 10 years and learning, married with a bunch of kids and no training to support the family?

    #1060203

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    regardless of your or my hashkafah on this

    #1060204

    BarryLS1
    Participant

    It’s because the Bais Yaakovs brainwash girls that the should only marry someone who will learn in kollel indefinitely. While some girls don’t fall for it, many do and the peer pressure adds to it.

    #1060205

    Joseph
    Participant

    DY: “I actually think there are few learner/earners, but a lot of girls looking for one.”

    You think the vast majority of boys in the non-chasidish chareidi communities choose to learn full-time for notably longer than three years post-marriage?

    “if a boy is serious about his learning, he likely is planning to learn full time for more than 2-3 years”

    How would you define what constitutes being “serious about his learning” (presumably more than just how long he plans to learn full-time) and at minimum how many years would someone serious about his learning likely be learning full-time post-marriage?

    #1060206

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Unfortunately, when my daughter said she was looking for a boy to learn 2-3 years, more than one shadchan says that is not a serious learner. I guess 5-10 is more like it

    I think they choose to learn longer than 3 years because it makes them look good. I’m sorry to be cyncial, but I do not believe every boy who is sitting and learning and plans to do so for some time, actually wants to, but they’ve been told that is the way to get a great shiidduch, makes them look honorable and they can avoid going to work for several years.

    #1060207

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lior: No, not necessarily.

    I don’t define serious based on number of years, but the number of year is still correlated with seriousness.

    #1060208

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Flatbusher, there will always be some people who take unfair advantage of any “system”. That’s why it’s important for a girl or her family/friends to do research.

    I don’t think the perception that a boy isn’t serious if his plan is to learn for two-three years is based on any inherent truth, it’s just that the reality today is that if a boy wants to learn for five-ten, he usually can, so someone who is serious about his learning usually will plan for that.

    #1060209

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I’m just telling you what I hear from Shadchanim.

    Sadly, doing research doesn’t always uncover the truth as many a young woman has found out after she is married to the “best boy.”

    The reality is maybe he can learn for 5-10 years, and then what? Instant parnassah?

    #1060210

    Joseph
    Participant

    DY: What proportion of shidduch aged boys do you think are serious about learning full-time?

    #1060211

    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    Not everyone looks too far into the future when looking for a shidduch.

    If a girl wants to marry someone who’s going to learn full time for the rest of his life, that’s realistic, but she has to realize that that means that she’s going to be working full time, or money will be very tight, or he’ll be in klei kodesh.

    If she wants to marry someone who’s going to learn for 10-15 yrs, it may be that he’ll only qualify for a low-paying job, which is also fine, as long as she understands. And after that he certainly won’t be learning full time.

    Anything is possible. But she’s gotta have realistic expectations as to how things will work out in the future. Full time learner? Check. Nice house? Nice clothes? Lots of jewelry? Vacations? She needs to decide for herself whether those need to be checked.

    #1060212

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Flatbusher, what’s your point?

    Lior, there’s no study, and no clear cut definition of a serious learner.

    #1060213

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Not sure what point you’re missing. Obviously, without plans for parnassa, it’s going to be tough going. Rebbe Yid, your assessment is unrealistic. You don’t seem to realize how much the basic necessities cost especially when there is a house full of children. Even if the wife works full time, it better be an extremely well paying job, and given the fact that most women at some point want to raise their kids, I don’t know how feasible that is. There are some yachidim who have the wealth to sit and learn their entire lives, but the reality is, most people work to make ends meet, and if the guy first decides at 35 that he has to work, well, his options may be limited.

    #1060214

    Joseph
    Participant

    DY: You already offered your opinion that “there are few learner/earners”; I’m asking you how “few” learner/earners do you perceive there are.

    #1060215

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Flatbusher, you started asking about the availability of shadchanim, and veered off into an anti long term kollel opinion. There are plenty of other threads for that.

    #1060216

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Lior, there are 219, and 752 girls looking to marry them.

    #1060217

    Joseph
    Participant

    That was funny; haw haw haw. You believe only a small proportion of non-chasidish chareidi bochorim want to start working between right away through less than two years into marriage?

    #1060218

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, I think you are confusing working boys with learner/earners. Most learners aren’t earners, and most earners aren’t learners.

    #1060219

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I was only responding to comments made. Unfortunately, I have witnessed what happens who make no plans. It has less to do with being kollel for long term than not planning for the future. I don’t know how anyone can find fault with a guy making plans to support his wife and family. After all, it is his responsibility, not his wife, or his father in law’s.

    #1060220

    flatbusher
    Participant

    There are guys who do want to learn but they also want to be responsible, so they learn but they know they have to earn, as opposed to those who apparently don’t think earning a living should be on their agenda.

    #1060221

    Joseph
    Participant

    How would you define a “learner/earner”? I would think (hope?) *all* frum working boys are learning Torah.

    #1060222

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Flatbusher, which comments were you responding to?

    Lior, I think you are confusing working boys with learner/earners.

    #1060223

    Joseph
    Participant

    Okay. Please define the difference between a working boy and a learner/earner.

    #1060224

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There’s lots of gray area, but I think the girls looking for a “learner/earner” want someone who spends six-eight hours a day learning at the same level as a typical full time yeshiva/kollel fellow.

    #1060225

    flatbusher
    Participant

    left yeshiva after mesifta and went to college and then work, while learner earner may be in yeshiva 2-3 years before embarking on path to earn a living

    #1060226

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think a bochur who left yeshiva at 20-21 and is now working or in school full time and has an hour seder at night is typically called a learner/earner.

    #1060227

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I didn’t say such a boy is a learner/earner. Generally it is understood as someone who remains in yeshiva for 2-3 years after marriage and then goes to work

    #1060228

    Joseph
    Participant

    Okay, boys, so it seems we simply have a differentiation in terminology that may be the cause for all this cross-talking static.

    Q: Please define the difference between a working boy and a learner/earner.

    A) There’s lots of gray area, but I think the girls looking for a “learner/earner” want someone who spends six-eight hours a day learning at the same level as a typical full time yeshiva/kollel fellow.

    B) left yeshiva after mesifta and went to college and then work, while learner earner may be in yeshiva 2-3 years before embarking on path to earn a living

    “A” is saying he’s effectively working full-time while almost effectively learning full-time simultaneously. Yeah, this kind of guy represents a tiny portion of guys out there – in shidduchim or not.

    “B” is simply saying he’s learning full-time less years than, apparently, a “real” Kollel guy.

    Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding.

    #1060229

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Your words: left yeshiva after mesifta and went to college and then work, while learner earner may be in yeshiva 2-3 years before embarking on path to earn a living

    #1060230

    flatbusher
    Participant

    yes, your point? Such a boy is not defined as learner/earner

    #1060231

    Joseph
    Participant

    If the responses on the previous thread where this exact “learner/earner” discussion took place over five years ago is any indication, most responses there define learner/earner as simply spending less years in kollel:

    Learner/Earner

    In fact, I didn’t see anyone there define it as being a boy who will both work and learn full-time simultaneously. While that might not prove that definition wrong, it appears in the popular lexicon it simply means less years in kollel coupled with kovea itim.

    #1060232

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Then why did you define him as a learner/earner? I’m confused.

    #1060233

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I didn’t define that. I said a boy who goes to work/school after mesifta is worker, while learner/earner is in yeshiva for 2-3 years after marriage and then goes to work. See above

    #1060234

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If someone was in yeshiva (post mesivta) for three years, that generally means he left at about 20-21, no?

    #1060235

    Learner/Earners are few as DY correctly stated. And frankly, the main learner/earner (ie one who does both in a somewhat even fashion) who are serious are one’s that need money. While this is a perfectly honest and ehrliche thing to work in addition to going to yeshiva and these guys are often very nice (and great shidduchim!), it’s not like financially more savvy to date a person who is learning part time because his parents can’t afford him to be in yeshiva vs. a guy who is learning full time and has no wanting to work – b/c his parents can afford so. I say this to make a point not to c’v degrade anyone. However, it is a point that often young bochurim who are working can be working in jobs that are not that lucrative (surprise, they have no experience nor degree) – while a yungerman in Kollel with an (achveis) computer science degree might be more geared long-term vis-a-vis parnassa. Boxes are good for storing things not people.

    To note, I think the main issue in shiddichim is if the pair is a good match (simple as that). But the learner/earner things needs to be taken to task. As stated, 1) the logic is not there with a learner/earner (except perhaps a few exceptions) 2) it’s frankly a made up category. Mind you, I am speaking to the under 23/24 crowd of boys. Of course, if a boy is older, then there are more boys that do both – because the type of income that comes with working part-time is worthwhile for a single bochur who is trying to start his post-bochurim life while still a bochur. If we are talking about an older girl, she should ya be looking for a learner/earner (those do exist) because a) they are working – showing often they are mature in their life b) they still connect with a makom Torah. But, again, that is by older bochurim, not under 23 ones.

    So, nu, what then should a baalabusta be looking for to be her lil’ Chaney’s chosson? The thing to look at in a shidduch (for those not totally bent on learning for an extended period of time) is a Learner or Earner (copyright DQB). This means that the person is serious about learning, and is reasonable about the possibility of working – and has done or has a plan to do his hishtadlus to find gainful employment when the need arises. It’s not like you leave kollel, go to the local Forbes 500 company, and ask them to get the corner office ready for tomorrow. Of course, if one’s parents have a large business in their family ready to give a great job to Baruch the Bochur – then again what’s the nafka minah of all these cheshbonos about what Baruch wants in 2 years, 5 years. It’s naarishkeit. The normal scenario for “normal” people is that the couple should be realistic about finances and very particular about making a Torah home (to note: anecdotally, the one who want a learner/earner crowd can [notice the word can, not the word are] be girls that are not that serious about having their husband learn but do want a good shidduch).

    So who is a good learner or earner?

    Does he have a college degree? A plan to go to law school or college [in a serious way – not taking a few course to see what’s what]? A particular business or trade that he is very interested in to pursue if the need arises. Does he when asked seem quite in touch with the reality that Kollel life is not necessarily long-term. That learning is amazing and something he wants to be part of his life, but he’s well aware of the need that will likely arise at some point (again not up to us but up to Hashem) when he has to work – and not in an abstract sense, but he has an idea of what type of work he’d like to do. For example, if he is interested in chinuch, does he plan on being a Rebbe at a local day camp in the summer. Learn night seder at a local high school. Tutor kids to see which type he has a better ability to connect towards. Does he shmooze it up when given the opportunity with noted mechanim in the area. The boy might want to be the Rosh Yeshiva – as an aside if that puts the girl off, then it’s not a good shidduch. But he has considered work and has a serious plan. That’s like a geshmaka piece of tiramisu. Seriously who is not giving it at least one try.

    Now, it could be Kollel life will be geshmakt. The young couple will thrive, the guy will get a nice position teaching in the yeshiva, the girl will be happy at a nice job, and guess what – they are learners for life. Or, Kollel life can be stressful, maybe a parent loses a job c’v or something else – so nu, the couple has a plan that both are comfortable with. That’s what’s to look for not the 219 learner/earners in actual existence of which to note 193 are over 24.

    DQB

    #1060236

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    try out of towners, theyre morre into reality than new yorkers

    for instance Ner Yisrael, Scranton, Providence

    #1060237

    flatbusher
    Participant

    DQB: the guy will get a nice position in yeshiva, girl will get a ice job and they are learners for life. What planet are you living on? There aren’t enough jobs for all those yeshiva guys, and besides who said they naturally qualify to be taechers. The experience has been that just because a person can learn doesn’t mean he can be a teacher, and what kind of nice job wil the girl have that pays all their expenses for the house full of children? Sounds like a me’ut she b’me’ut that can live the fantasy scenario you describe.

    #1060238

    Flatbusher, I’ll assume your oversight was due to do my extensive blathering above – the fact you reached the final paragraph is a kavod :-). I said “could”. I personally know there are guys who have degrees who were learners or earners who are now Rebbeim in Yeshiva and making things work for a long time. It happens to be it worked out. Though, they were ready to go work if need be. This is of course is an exception. I was making the point that either way – it’s up to Hashem. Not to the couple when their dating. The ikar is to be realistic.

    Added note, that there are plenty people working who are having trouble make ends meet.

    DQB

    #1060239

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Sure, there are always exceptions, and sadly some people point to that as if that situation is applicable to a broader group. But the one’s you mention are the exception. Many a couple struggle from the beginning, as the wife ends up taking whatgever job to make money and then when the husband finally realizes he needs to work, his options are limited if he can’t afford the time to be trained. Certainly there are people in alll stations in life who struggle but often its their job or career choices that contribute to the situation. Someone who goes to law school or become an accountant usually earns more than someone who works at a supermarket, or ebcomes a rebbi, which is not high paying

    #1060240

    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    You can’t put a guy who went to college at 20 or 21, or law school at 21, and then started working at age 24, in the same category as a guy who started working basically full-time in a relatively menial job when he was 18-19 years old.

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