May 11, 2012 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #603374
HI can anybody tell me why is it that some girls say they want a Learning Boy?(i think its only the shtick for their friends) dont they want he should go work after sheva broches?
please explain?May 11, 2012 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1027449
I have no idea Wat you are talking about.May 13, 2012 6:14 am at 6:14 am #1027450
Smartstar: Wish there were (more) girls who think like that out there. It’s called being unrealistic. For some people it is realistic. Most of them, not exactly.May 13, 2012 7:36 am at 7:36 am #1027451
Most girls are drilled in school about the chashivus of torah and are strongly encouraged to take a husband that will sit and learn for many years for that is the ultimate goal of a man…
though, realistically, not everyone needs or appreiciates a learner.May 13, 2012 7:38 am at 7:38 am #1027452
to some girls, it is more important to live a life where they can make ends meet more easily with both of their pay checks.
living on a kolel budget is not all that simple. only one who appreciates what you get for it, can truely live a happy life making due with less. now, IMHO, most girls today are not at that point.May 13, 2012 10:17 am at 10:17 am #1027453
The girls are being trained right. They know that their future husband might have to go to work when their parents’ resources run out, but they won’t accept a boy who lischat’chila (before the shidduch) already identifies himself as “working,” “earning,” etc. As soon as more boys get this message, there will be less of a shidduch crisis.May 13, 2012 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1027454
Maybe as soon as more girls get the message that while not every guy is cut out to sit and learn all day, they can still be great people and wonderful jews, we’ll have an end to the totally started-by-society shidduch crisis.May 13, 2012 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1027455
Loyal jew: excuse me, but I would like to respectfully but very strongly disagree with you on this. Just because a person is a bochur does not mean they are cut out to sit and learn all day. I think there needs to be a more realistic approach to these things. Yes it is great if one can realistically maintain such a lifestyle (which I am jealous of those who can), but most girls are being very unrealistic these days because they don’t fully understand what they are getting into. Not saying the guys do when they say the want to stay in learning either but kudos to those who can. Basically, I have nothing personally against girls or guys making such a lifestyle a top criteria, so long as they are realistic about it.May 14, 2012 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1027456
Loyal Jew: Chagigah 5bMay 14, 2012 2:59 am at 2:59 am #1027457
livelovelaugh and yossi z, well said!May 14, 2012 3:32 am at 3:32 am #1027458May 14, 2012 4:43 am at 4:43 am #1027459
Sam2, you seem to define a “working boy” as someone who *shouldn’t* be learning because Hashem cries over one who “cannot be oseik ba-Torah but does anyway.” How do we get from there to bachurim who exempt themselves and head off to college, where they somehow find the ability to learn, lehavdil?May 14, 2012 4:57 am at 4:57 am #1027460
Loyal Jew: Ah, you got the Mareh Makom. Good. Most people don’t get what I mean when I reference that. It is a problem. Everyone has to recognize their own abilities. The boy who should be learning nonstop but instead does other things (even if they’re M’leches Shamayim) falls under the exact same category. Both are equally bad. That still is a far, far cry from what your post said. People have different Tafkids. As long as someone recognizes their purpose and fulfills it to the utmost, they are perfect in Hashem’s eyes. So why should they be looked down upon by you (and every girl who you would raise)?May 14, 2012 5:07 am at 5:07 am #1027461
Thank you sam2May 14, 2012 5:26 am at 5:26 am #1027462
I believe girls say it, because that is what they are told they should want! throughtout by the teachers try as hard as they can to convince them that it is the right way( trust me i know this from experience!) the only thing is is that they dont really take into account that it might not really make girls happy in the long run! If they just left people to make their own life decisions, there probably wouldnt be as much divorce! People need to think for themsleves!!!! I hope i didnt get anyone to upset, sorry these are just my opinions!May 14, 2012 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1027463
Sam2, bachurim do not have that level of judgment. When they apply to yeshivos or kollelim, they don’t get to define their own madreiga, the rabonim do this. It should be the same kal va-chomer when bachurim say they wish to leave that world, for two reasons. First, so many of them suddenly *do* find the ability to learn, just not Torah. Second, Am Yisroel pays a price for this. Either way, I think the answer is not to make the girls back down on their requirements but to upgrade the boys.May 14, 2012 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1027464
Just thinking out loud.
torah is to a boy, as ?? tznius ?? is to a girl?
i’m not sure, but from what i learnt in school, this is definitaley the comparison.
so now, “not every guy is cut out to learn” so would that guy be so kind as to marry the girl “who is not cut out to dress modestly?”
not that i’m making fun in any which way of non learners.
this is just a thought that jsut popped into my head.May 14, 2012 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1027465
Loyal Jew: Of course. Everyone should learn for a good period of time. But guys who are ready to get married should know where they’re holding in life. If they don’t, they’re probably not ready to get married either.May 14, 2012 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1027466
I happen to be a guy not cut out to learn … At least not in a yeshivah schedule/setting. Not saying every bochur is like me but we get slack because of it anyways.May 14, 2012 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1027467
Loyal Jew- I love how you say they should learn until their parents resources run out. What if their parents are broke or they don’t think they should support their kid who isn’t working?May 14, 2012 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1027468
Is it Adar, again?May 14, 2012 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1027469
your presumption is wrong
not everyone is cut out to learn, one needs to be able to sit for hours, think hard, be of interest to him
tznius is a halacha that has to be followedMay 14, 2012 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1027470
babygoose – yes, Torah is the lifeline of every man. It is his very life, his spiritual essence. This does not (necessarily) have any bearing on how many hours a day he learns, and whether he is involved in other activities.May 14, 2012 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1027471
no connections there. everyone needs a parnasah to raise their children to become ovday hashem, to go to yeshiva, etc.. that doesnt mean he should marry someone who isnt tznius. why would that even pop into your head. most yeshiva bochurim go to work at some point. so they should lose their kedusha and marry a non-tznius girl??? im sorry if im being so blunt but…..come on!! its a nebach to have non tznius girls in klal yisrael and its something everyone has a chiyuv to work on. dont make it worse.May 14, 2012 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1027472
Maybe the connection is that the nisayon for girls is tznius while its learning for a boy…NOT that there is a direct comparison where someone who doesnt learn is going to marry a girl who isnt tznius.May 15, 2012 12:13 am at 12:13 am #1027473
ilovetheholyland: “livelovelaugh and yossi z, well said!”
I agree totally.May 15, 2012 5:25 am at 5:25 am #1027474
KFB, you ask “What if their parents are broke or they don’t think they should support their kid who isn’t working?”
Those are two radically different things. Being “broke” is something for a beis din to determine, and if it’s so then the community needs to step in. “Not thinking that they should support their kid” is a huge misunderstanding. It’s Torah we are supposed to support, not a “kid who isn’t working.” The kid is presumably working hard, at Torah. If he isn’t, his rosh yeshiva needs to step in. Either way, no one (the medina, the parents) should be able to dump avreichim into the street just so.May 15, 2012 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1027475
Ok now that we know how yissachar is supposed to be taken care of, what about the 11 other shevatim?
V’higisa bo yomam valayla, if you look it up in shulchan aruch, can be mekuyam through learning in the morning and again in the evening and still work at a physical job during the day. Of course torah should constantly be on one’s mind at all times.
I am not looking here to argue, just to make things clear ..May 16, 2012 7:08 am at 7:08 am #1027476
Going back on what loyal Jew said. You mentioned how some boys can’t learn in yeshiva and then go to college and are able to learn. Of course that happens. People find it a lot easier to study something they find interesting. Personally, I do not enjoy learning Gemara, i tried for years but never received much enjoyment from it. However certain subjects that I studied in college I found to be way more interesting. So what should I do? Should I go to kollel and spend my days in torture. The reality, and this is something many frum people seem to be in denial about, is that learning and being in kollel is not the only important part of judiasm. Some people aren’t meant to be learners and can fill other roles in klal Yisroel. I’m not saying their completely patur from learning, but they shouldn’t be expected to learn all day especially if they don’t enjoy learning. As a rebbi once told me “the most important thing in life is to do whatever makes you happy”May 16, 2012 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1027477
far east – How sad. You are a victim of the “one size fits all” attitude in learning. If soemone doesn’t find an interest in studying, thats something else. But for you enjoy studying, but not find gemara interesting, is terrible. If you would been allowed to learn according to your abilities – both the topic, and method, of learning that naturally appeals to you, it would be a whole different story. Everyone can enjoy learning, if only they actually focus on what type of learning they enjoy, and approach Torah as well from that angle.
learning … is not the only important part of judiasm
But it is the most important part. If someone has a thick head, then he’s not a learner. But if someone has a fine head, but doesn’t know how to apply it to Gemara (or halacha etc) in a way that he will be interested – nebach.May 16, 2012 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1027478
“Far east”: we do many things without asking whether we enjoy them. Hashem told us to learn and we are His servants. We can’t opt out by saying that it isn’t interesting or enjoyable, that the economy is bad, that we need to support our families, etc. It is for others to decide, we have too much negiya (conflict of interest).May 16, 2012 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1027479
Loyal Jew – Yes, we have to learn even if we don’t enjoy. But someone who doesn’t enjoy has a different level of chiyuv [As expounded on by the Ohr Samayach that I’m fond of quoting here.]May 16, 2012 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #1027480
Logiacan- yeah its true i know there must be areas of learning that i would find interesting but i havent yet find my niche for learning and i hope i will one day. I cant change my pasts negative associations with learning, but im trying to change my behavior and change the association to a positive one.
Loyal Jew- Thats a very litvish apporach. Not exactly my style. I dont think is so simple to spend your life doing something thats torture for you. You can bring me all the arguments youd like, but i do not believe god brought me to this world to make me suffer. I believe he wants me to be happy. I will continue to do what makes me happy while trying to be the best jew i can and have a strong relationship with God.May 16, 2012 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1027481
Babygoose and those who commented about the comparison of limud Torah for a man versus tznius for a woman. I heard a very interesting shmooze last night from Rebbetzin Nechama Karlinsky, where she says that the parallel is in dealing with the yatzer hara. She said that H’ created the yatzer hara and for a man learning Torah is his way to fight it and for a woman tznius is the mitzvah that helps her deal with the yatzer hara. Does that make any sense?
Far east – I’m sorry that you have negative feelings about learning. I understood from some classes that I took years ago that since learning Torah is a chiyuv for a man, then the yatzer hara comes very strongly to him on that particular issue, whereas if someone is doing something voluntarily, then the yatzer hara doesn’t get involved so much, so maybe that’s why you have such a hard time with learning Torah but not so hard of a time with learning regular subjects, since your yatzer hara is very strong against your learning Torah (which, as a side note, would make me think that your learning is very precious because the yatzer hara doesn’t need to come too strong for something that’s not worthwhile, whereas it will fight with all its might against something that is).May 16, 2012 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #1027482
Nechomah- Thanks so much for the encouragement! Ive spoken to my rebbi about this and he always tells me the same thing, how my learning is worth so much more because i really struggle to find satisfaction.May 16, 2012 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1027483
Logician – Learning is “the most important part” of Judaism? I vehemently disagree. Getting close to, emulating, and having a relationship with Hashem is. Learning may be the most fundamental means of doing this, but It’s not the primary goal.
“f someone a fine head…but doesn’t know how to apply it…in a way that he’ll be interested…nebach.” The commandment of learning is equal to people of all intellects. In my own estimation, while some people less capable learn less, when learning their enjoyment is equal, regardless of intellect.
Additionally, some of the people that I’ve seen having the most difficult time learning, are very bright. Saying nebach in a patronizing tone when deciding what other people should be doing for their avodas hashem is rather arrogant, don’t you think?
May 16, 2012 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1027484
There is an obligation for every Jewish male to learn Torah. Some do more, some less. Enjoying learning is a plus, but if one doesn’t enjoy it he isn’t exempt.May 16, 2012 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #1027485
Let me work backwards.
1. No, I don’t think it was arrogant. And the poster I was talking to seems to have been fine with it, no ? That’s because he himself realizes that it’s a shame. And prob. because I specified my feeling that it was the system that failed him, not his own fault. Even if you’d be right, and its not most important, it certainly is a very important thing, and so its nebach on someone who lacks it. Don’t see anything patronizing in what I wrote.
2. There are those who don’t enjoy intellectual discussions. They enjoy learning less. In addition, don’t know if you learn, but proper learning involves a lot of head-breaking before its starts getting clear and geshmak. For many, especially if you’re not good at it, this is not enjoyable.
I quoted R’ Meir Simchah. I imagine you’re quoting your stomach. Otherwise, please let me know. (I hope this sounds arrogant and patronizing.)
3. If something is the most fundamental way of getting to a desired goal, I have no problem calling it “the most important part”.May 17, 2012 4:57 am at 4:57 am #1027486
Logican- Just because i dont respond to an insulting post it doesnt make it correct. Yes you specified that it was the system who failed and not me, but you also basically said nebach on me. My friend, thats very foolish. You realize you are part of the system of people who looks down on people who dont learn as much as you believe your supposed to. I didnt respond, not out of “shame”, but because it will serve no purpose. I have no reason to argue with you. I thank god every day how amazing hes been to me, and im pretty confident no one i know thinks of me as a nebach. So im not a yeshivash kid. Not really intersted in being one either. I want to serve god my own way. Dont be so quick to look at someone who doesnt enjoy learning as a nebach, its called being judgemental and doesnt belong in our religion.May 18, 2012 12:13 am at 12:13 am #1027487
If you’re insulted, I’m very sorry, I didn;t imagine for a moment you would be. Because:
I do not look down at anyone for how much they learn, or work.
YOU said that you’re not so into learning. Torah is the inheritance of every Jew, and there’s no one who can’t have a part. I wasn’t commenting on the amount that works for you, but on the fact that you said that its not for you. That’s a nebach. If someone is blind, its a nebach that they can’t learn (lets say), right ? They’re not to blame, they’re wonderful, but they’re missing out on an important part of yiddishkeit. And there you could say its clearly what G-d wants from them. But everyone can learn (unless they can’t – nebach). A learning disability is a nebach, no ?
I’m not judging, and this has nothing to do with being yeshivish, or learning vs. working.
You’re putting yourself in a different category, and want validation (I know, not from me) for that. But I say that you’re working doesn’t put you in a different category at all, and that that attitude closes you off from one of the most important experiences a Yid has. So who’s putting who down ?May 18, 2012 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1027488
I would like to reiterate what I said earlier.
My post was meant very sincerely. I have experience working with boys who are struggling with their learning. I firmly believe that every one of them can get a good handle on learning, and its only a question of finding the key for them. Given the extreme importance of Talmud Torah, I empathized with you. It pains me to think of every Yid who is not learning as much as they would want, or does not enjoy their learning, because I believe its unnecessary.
“Nebach” was not meant as a title, but as expressing my sympathy.
If you are of the belief that there are those “not cut out to learn”, then I understand why my comments sounded offensive, and I apologize again.May 20, 2012 4:27 am at 4:27 am #1027489
A response ?
Ok. Not ok. Your still a fool.
Anything ?May 20, 2012 7:03 am at 7:03 am #1027490
NebachMay 20, 2012 7:53 am at 7:53 am #1027491
okMay 20, 2012 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #1027492
smartstar wrote: “HI can anybody tell me why is it that some girls say they want a Learning Boy?”
Answer: Some of them are no doubt sincerely interested in having a husband who devotes himself to k’lei kodesh, but the rest of them have been brainwashed to ignore the Rambam in Hilchos Dayos, who cites the Gemara in Sotah which indicates that the proper way is to first find a profession, build a house and then marry; but the fools marry first etc. The Kessef Mishneh raises the problem that R changed the order from the Gemara – in the Gemara, (Sotah 44a); the ideal order is to build a house, find a profession and then marry; Kessef Mishneh answers that the main objection is to marrying before being “set-up” for married life; the profession and housebuilding are not of concern, as long as both of them come first. (Based on Torah.org)May 20, 2012 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1027493
The real issue with girls only dating “learning boys” is this: Can you imagine a frum girl telling a shadchan that she is only willing to go out with a boy who is a doctor (or in medical school)? She would rightly be laughed out the door. When a girl says she is only willing to go out with a boy who is in learning, she is doing the same thing, just picking the Torah profession instead of the medical profession (l’havdil, of course).May 21, 2012 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1027494
Torah is a way of life, not a profession.
Yet many are of the belief that one should be uber holy at the expense of the parent’s paycheck.June 6, 2014 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1027495
Torah can also be a profesion. See Brachos 12 and Sotah 42 about Toraso Umnaso.June 6, 2014 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1027496
Patur Aval AssurParticipant
You can be Toraso Umnaso even if you have a job.
Shulchan Aruch (Y.D 243:2)
????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?”? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????
See also Shach (C.M. 124:4)
The above is referring to stam Toraso Umnaso. However there is a higher level of Toraso Umnaso in regards to being patur from Tefila:
?? ?????? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????. ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????”? ?”? (???? ?”? ?”?) ??????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ???”? (????????? ??? ?? ??’ ?) ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??????? (Perisha O.C. 106:5)
However see the Mishna Berura (146:9) quoting the Elya Rabba that in regards to learning during krias hatorah (about which there is an opinion that someone who is Toraso Umnaso is permitted to learn):
???’ ??”? ????? ??? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??June 8, 2014 2:46 am at 2:46 am #1027497
“Torah is a way of life, not a profession.
Yet many are of the belief that one should be uber holy at the expense of the parent’s paycheck.”
Yes, I know this is an old thread, but I just felt the need to comment-
Torah is a way of life. The way of life of every frum Jew, not just the ones in kollel.
I’ve heard too many lectures about how I should only marry a guy who will learn for a few years “to give my family a foundation of Torah.”
No, sorry, my home will have a very clear foundation of Torah whether my husband learns in kollel first or not. IMHO, every frum home NEEDS a foundation of Torah, no? What else is it founded on, Greek philosophy? Nicholas Sparks novels? If the only way for a family to have a foundation of Torah is for the husband/father to learn in kollel, then all those families whose husbands/fathers did not must be worshipping idols or something. I don’t think that that’s the case, at least with my dad. But I must not know.
My goal, when I’m married, is that my family will be built on Torah because everything we do will be filtered through that lens- whether it happens to be that my husband will be learning in kollel or not. Anything else, obviously, is fake.
Sorry, but as a (nearly ex-) twelfth grader, I’ve been hearing too much about “the kollel mystique” and how it’s necessary for this “Torah foundation” and it’s getting me mad. I call hooey. Perhaps kollel’s good for a certain kind of life (in fact, I’m sure it is) but don’t be overly simple and exclusionary about defining what a “Torah foundation” is.
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