October 22, 2010 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #703470Ben TorahParticipant
RSRH: Everyone respects that, despite the babble you hear from the anti-Torah crowd. But also realize that to study long and hard to become a Talmid Chochom, and shteig all day every day in the holiness and sweetness of the Torah HaKedosha is the greatest, most productive, calling in life.October 22, 2010 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #703471
Of course I can respect you for all that. Most of my family members are doing the same as you are (besides for the part about choosing not to support it) and serving Hashem through the way they chose.
I dont think that there is anything wrong with the life you chose. Not everyone was meant to learn all day and thats fine. All I ask of you is not to bash those of us that did choose to learn all day. We are learning the Torah that you believe in. So just please dont put it down.
As far as beng equal, I dont think that that has anything to do with this. I have no idea what schar is waiting for either of us. Maybe more was excpected of me and I wont get so much schar. And maybe you are doing exactly what is expected of you and will go straight to gan eden. I dont know who Hashem decides is equal.
All I know is that I dont consider myself equal to a lot of people out there. So why do you feel like we need to be equal? Would you say you should be equal to R’ Chaim Kanievsky as long as you are both adhering to Hashems law in all that you do?October 22, 2010 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #703472
whatrutalkingabt and so right –
You have a point. I should (and will bli neder) lay off. I made my point more than once and I should give it a rest.
All I ask in return is that the learning camp start treating the working camp with the same respect and admiration. We do our share of the avodas hashem too.October 22, 2010 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #703473
One more thing, whatrutalkingabt
I really appreicate the way you stated your case. It was not with a stick, but with a scepter, that you got my attention.
Thanks – BPOctober 22, 2010 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #703474RSRHMember
Why is it that a kollel man’s learning all day and putting his obligations to be mipharnes his family on others (whether they do so willingly or not, he still has a personal moral-ethical duty min hatorah to do so) is “the greatest most productive life”? How is that more productive than my choosing to sit in school for years and years to become truly an expert in profession, support my family, and earn smicha yadin yadin at the same time? How is that more productive than my publishing articles in respected forums about the moral worthiness of Jewish law for all the world to read and learn from? It is easy to say that the guy sitting in the bais medrash that no one will ever hear from or learn from is holding up the world in a spiritual manner, but why doesn’t he hold it up in a tangible way; a way that his fellow men can appreciate and value and benefit from?October 22, 2010 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #703476squeakParticipant
Based on your handle, I am assuming that you have had an upbringing that most people cannot fully understand. How many of those who read the writings of your leader truly understand his meanings? (I think that in today’s age, fewer and fewer of the original group even try to study it, and most just continue to uphold the status quo. OTOH, I have a newfound respect for a growing number of yiddin from “other” group of “followers”, many of whom are really coming to grips with the true understanding of the philosophies and it shows in their clean break from the mainstream ways of their institution.)
You are following the path of the right and true, according to all you have been taught. Don’t let the moral judgement of those with differing philosophies to sway you. They are similarly pursuing the right and true according to what they have been taught.
The kollel lifestyle is a separate issue from the philosophies.October 23, 2010 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #703477
I appreciate that you read through my post and didnt get defensive. (as some other posters here did) Thank you for taking my point to heart.
Of course I respect the working part of the Torah community. My own father, who I think is one of the greatest people out there is a working professional, who also happens to be a talmid chacham.
We are all here on Earth to accomplish the same thing. We all believe in the same Torah and try our hardest to live by it. Its ok for each person to have a different derech towards their goal.October 24, 2010 3:26 am at 3:26 am #703478oomisParticipant
I believe that the working camp (that is also a learning camp for part of the day) is doing the truest avodas Hashem. They dedicate part of their day to learning Torah, and the rest of the day to earning a parnassah to ensure that they are also able to LIVE Torah, by providing for their wives and children.October 24, 2010 3:28 am at 3:28 am #703479mw13Participant
Wow, a (fairly) calm, intellectual discussion on learning vs working. I’m pleasantly surprised.
whatrutalkingabt: Excellent points, couldn’t agree more.
“All I ask in return is that the learning camp start treating the working camp with the same respect and admiration. We do our share of the avodas hashem too.”
What makes you think that those of us from “the learning camp” don’t have respect for those who work?October 24, 2010 9:20 am at 9:20 am #703480
Rabbi of Berlin-
It isnt staggering. And no one is ignoring open gemorahs. These are famous gemorahs that everyone has heard before.
And you are going to argue with this, but we arent relying on others for parnassah. We are relying on Hashem. And there is nothing wrong with that. The gemorah says (you failed to quote this one) that Shevet Levi did not have to work, and Hashem provided for them. And anyone who wants to be a part of that can join.
Now you will say “but shevet levi should be a small percentage, not the thousands of people who are learning nowadays.” and I will tell you that due to assimilation and people off the derech, we ARE an extremely small percentage of learners.
And where are you getting “tens of thousands of people that are burdening the tzibbur” from? That is a gross exagerration. Majority of the people learning will only learn for a couple of years after the chasunah and go to work way before they have kids that they need to pay tuition for. Out of the rest of them (the long term learners) there is a large group that support themselves by the wife working (sometimes more than one job) and the husband bringing home kollel paychecks or tutoring. So we arent left with that many people who are “burdening the tzibbur”.
Besides, I’m really not here to argue about if one should or shouldnt learn. Everyone can choose what they want to do. I just had a simple request for BP Totty and he complied like a mentsch.October 24, 2010 9:26 am at 9:26 am #703481
I dont think that any of us down here on earth can decide who is more of an eved Hashem.October 24, 2010 9:39 am at 9:39 am #703482cvParticipant
“In Chareidi schools, even anyone paying “full” price, is being subsidized. ”
Do you mean “government” paid from their personal check books? Don’t you think this subsidized money coming from taxes every working person pay?October 24, 2010 11:54 am at 11:54 am #703483minyan galMember
I have often wondered if some of the “learners” are wasting this opportunity and just using it as an chance to “escape” from some of the harsh realities of life. For someone who may not be the greatest student or very ambitious this is a convenient “out”. It removes a lot of life’s reponsibilities – someone else is supporting them, they sit all day in a fairly sheltered environment and then go home to an adoring family. I doubt if there is a very high percentage of people like this, but surely there must be some. I think that these are the same people that could never hold down a job and got through school with very mediocre marks.October 24, 2010 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #703485oomisParticipant
I dont think that any of us down here on earth can decide who is more of an eved Hashem.”
Perhaps you are right, but anyone with seichel can see who is NOT being one. With some rare exceptions when one is an iluy, there is no justification for MOST young men to sit and learn ALL day, when they are mechuyav to support their growing families (read the kesuvah – it says nothing in there about a woman supporting her husband, but it says a whole lot regarding the reverse being true). If he cannot find time to learn AND work, he might have a problem. My father O”H got up extra early to learn every day, then went to school to prepare for his profession, came home at night, and sat down to learn after dinner until he went to sleep (late at night). He was an incredible talmid chochom, who by the definitions espoused here, SHOULD have sat and learned yomam v’layla. But he had a responsibility to his parents, and then to my mother O”H when he married her. So he did BOTH. He never missed a day of learning for several hours.October 25, 2010 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #703486
When all is said and done, I think both the “learners” and the “workers” all share a common goal. Its just we differ on how best to achieve that goal.
Like most things discussed on-line, the opening of a dialouge is the 1st step towards a soloution. Just a few years ago, there was no such thing as an “open forum” where a discussion like this could take place on a ground level. I would never have the podium to state my case, and if I was rich enought / clout enoght to buy one, whatrutalkingabt and SoRight would never be able to challenge me.
So in the end, we come to a middle ground. And everyone wins.
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