Learning But Not Being Supported
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- This topic has 170 replies, 33 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 8 months ago by sof davar hakol nishma.
July 16, 2010 3:45 am at 3:45 am #690021
Myfriend- your wrote:
Yes, a woman’s place is at home. But also yes, the type of home you are supposed to have is a Torah home, a Torah-husband and Torah-father at its helm.
MY OH MY! You really think a Torah home is a home where the husband is in Kollel? You’ve got some things to learn in life!
A torah home is when a father makes sure Halachos are carried out to the fullest in the home, and he puts aside time for learning, and the kids are all brought up with the word of the torah. If the father is in kollel or working, is ZERO pertaining to a Torah home.
I also thought the way you’re thinking when I was a girl in dreamland!
That is rather a very immature way of thinking.
It’s time to sit back and wait until you start building a family and then you’ll let us all know!!!July 16, 2010 3:49 am at 3:49 am #690022
smartcookie, aside from being wrong, you COMPLETELY missed the point! Absolutely, the more Torah the better a Torah home. So Kollel is DEFINITELY 1,000% closer to a Torah-true home than non-Kollel. Kollel very much is pertaining to a Torah home.July 16, 2010 3:58 am at 3:58 am #690023philosopherMember
Hey, I just realized I wrote a Torah lifestyle is for those who can live it…
I made a HUGE MISTAKE. I meant to write, a long term kollel lifestyle…July 16, 2010 4:00 am at 4:00 am #690024
No I didn’t miss your point.
The more torah is NOT the more torah home. Where do you take that from?
Many people in kollel have no idea how to transfer their torah to their home.
Many working men have beautiful homes that are so respecting of torah.July 16, 2010 4:02 am at 4:02 am #690025
Myfriend, with my following question I’m assuming you’re not married, please correct me if I’m wrong.
When your husband will start working because you will IYH have a family and will stay home(hopefully), how will you handle that? You will thinkyour husband is doing something very wrong…July 16, 2010 4:02 am at 4:02 am #690026
If you didn’t miss the point, you are sadly mistaken.
The more Torah MOST CERTAINLY IS the more of a Torah home. This isn’t even debatable.
And most people in Kollel have a FAR FAR better idea how to transfer their Torah to their home, than those not.
And OMG, your last comment got ROTFL. Let’s just say that all your assumptions were way off the mark.July 16, 2010 4:07 am at 4:07 am #690027
How were they way off the mark please?July 16, 2010 4:28 am at 4:28 am #690028WIYMember
Actually I find in general not always but very often that the homes where the husband didnt go to Kollel but he is a frum man who is Koveia itim and she is a a frum woman with good hashkafos tend to have better more adjusted Torahdig families.
I find that as long as daddy is in Kollel he is all holy and the house is Torahdig but then once he leaves he drops in Ruchnius like a stone in water. What do you think that does to the family? They all drop with him. A non Kollel family doesnt have this phenomenon.July 16, 2010 4:32 am at 4:32 am #690029
It’s sometimes true when he leaves Kollel he drops a madreiga, nevertheless they still tend to be on a higher madreiga the longer they were in Kollel.July 16, 2010 4:32 am at 4:32 am #690030philosopherMember
WIY, isn’t that being a little too judgemental on all kollel yungerleit?July 16, 2010 4:36 am at 4:36 am #690031
WIY- I totally agree with the first part of your post.
When the children see their father working 9 hours a day and coming home like a shmate, then they see him go back to bais hamedrash late at night, they get to respect torah. They see what real sacrafice for torah means.
when the father is in kollel all day(and that’s very beautiful IF he’s really learning there), then the kids know their father is learning, but they can’t prove it.
Note that I’m saying many men and not ALL.
The children see no sacrafice for Torah. It’s not so hard to be in kollel all day when the wife brings home a paycheck every week…July 16, 2010 7:42 am at 7:42 am #690032sof davar hakol nishmaMember
Why are we all making such assupmptions? i know families of all types. Some of where the father is still learning, hes for sure in 50’s and the house was well, lets say a little hefker not because he was learning but cuz of the mother. and lots of s”d the kids are unbelievable. Then you have families with the parents involved, father’s only learning… mothers supporting and kids don’t turn out that well. You have families that fathers are working mothers full “stay at home mom” and torahdik and children bum out and families with the same set up and children turn out amazing.
IN short There are TONZ of factors to raising kids and building a home. How can we all pin it on one factor.
Ch’V im not minimizing Torah. “??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????”July 16, 2010 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #690033says whoMember
While I agree that a full time learner has more of a chance to grow on a higher madreiga, as far as establishing a tora’tiga home a worker and a learner have the same chance.July 16, 2010 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #690034oomisParticipant
Sof Davar we cannot pin it on one inyan, but for SURE there is a greater chance for a problem when BOTH parents are not actively involved in their kids’ upbringing, oblivious to the goings-on in his household, and the mom is at work to support them all. A babysitter is not a substitute for parenting. Unless she is their loving Bubby (who already raised HER kids), she is not the person closest to them, who has an achrayus al pi Hashem to raise them.July 16, 2010 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #690035SJSinNYCMember
I don’t think the discussion about “which is a more Torahdig home” is really applicable.
Men in Kollel fulfill different mitzvot than those who work. Their homes can be just as Toradig as each other, depending on how they and their wives establish their homes.
I do not agree that a full time worker has a chance to grow to a higher madreiga. The madreiga a person can reach is based on themselves and how they approach life.July 16, 2010 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #690036WolfishMusingsParticipant
So Kollel is DEFINITELY 1,000% closer to a Torah-true home than non-Kollel. Kollel very much is pertaining to a Torah home.
Since you’ve now established that my home is not (and can never be) a “Torah-true” home since I work for a living, can we just get on with my excommunication already?
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #690037Max WellMember
He said “closer” not “exclusively.”July 16, 2010 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #690038WolfishMusingsParticipant
When he uses terms like “1000% closer” that pretty much indicates that I’m nowhere even close. When you’re out by the orbit of Neptune, it doesn’t really matter how hot the sun is.
The WolfJuly 16, 2010 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #690039aries2756Participant
Wolf, I don’t agree with missme and my son’s Rosh Yeshiva happens to disagree with her as well. He says it is a beautiful way to start off the marriage but a parent is not mechuyav to work into their 80’s to support children who want to stay in Kollel. He also makes sure his “talmidim” understand that a wife is a “matonah” from Hashem and they should never take that gift for granted.
He maintains a very strong kesher with his talmidim and enforces a true concept of Shalom Bayis along with Torah in their homes.
One problem that I have with long term learners is that SOME and I’m not saying MOST, I”M saying SOME do not apply what they learn to every day life. They don’t do the mitzvas and maasiv tovim they are learning about, they just learn about it. In other words, they learn all day and all night but then when they finally pull their noses out of the sefer they have blinders on and don’t see the opportunities right in front of them. For all their learning they should know the right thing to do and do it. And that applies to helping their wives and being involved with their children as well. They have obligations to wives and children and learning does not absolve them of their obligations. So they need to make time for their families and spend quality time with them. They also need to help their wives and do it graciously. Learning Torah does not absolve them of doing the other mitzvos their are required to do.
EDITEDJuly 16, 2010 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #690040says whoMember
To build a true Toradige home is expected from every jew. Learning all day and not working, is not. Sow how can someone say that in order to build a toridige home one should learn all day?July 16, 2010 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #690041sof davar hakol nishmaMember
i agree 100% i know families where both are working and full time home help. very sad, basically the cleaning lady is raising the kids. Time will tell how those kids turn out. but a father learning and mother working IS NOT a contradiction to the fact that the parents ARE involved in their lives and close to their children. My opinion is that its very much dependent on the parent themselves regardless of working or not, how close they’ll be to their kids. Yes automatically a “stay at home mom” will be more involved. but still a lot has to do with the individual.
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