Learning during Chazoras Hashatz

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  • #603225

    The Frumguy
    Participant

    I see a ???? ?????? in the Mishna Berurah (???? ??”?, ?”? ?”?) that it is not permitted to learn during ???? ??”?. I constantly notice chashuvah men and numerous Yeshiva Bochurim reading from a sefer during it. Does anyone out there know of a heter? If not, how would you handle it?

    #1088987

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    True story:

    I used to learn during Chazaras HaShatz. One day, as I was davening, I caught my 14-year old son reading a novel during Chazaras HaShatz. When I told him that it was inappropriate to do so, he responded that since I read, there was no reason that he shouldn’t do so as well.

    I tried to justify my actions by stating that at least I was learning and such, but, in the end, I had to concede that he was correct and that my actions were just as wrong as his.

    Since then, I follow along in the siddur during Chazaras HaShatz. And my son no longer reads then as well.

    The Wolf

    #1088988

    pcoz
    Member

    – the Rambam cancelled chazaras hashatz because he said people who can daven don’t need it and therefore just chat during chazaras hashatz, the people who can’t daven and do need it see the people who can daven chatting so they also chat. Therefore they only had one amidah and the chazan said it aloud so people who could daven said it to themselves and people who couldn’t daven were yotzei the first time. This minhag persisted in Cairo for about 300 years.

    – According to Rb Matisyahu Salomon shlit”a chazaras hashatz is a higher madregah than your own shemoneh esrei because gadol haoneh amen yoser mehamevarech.

    – The chazan after Reb Rephoel Shmuelevitz’s shiur for mincha always used to say a hoche kedushah except on Chanukah.

    #1088989

    TheGoq
    Participant

    What makes them chashuvah other than the fact they are learning during davening?

    #1088990

    Sam2
    Participant

    The M”B has a very interesting Lashon (Tzarich Lizaher) about not learning. I heard B’sheim R’ Weinberg (from Ner Yisrael) that it means you shouldn’t learn somewhere where people will learn from you and will come to read other things (as evidenced in Wolf’s story). However, in a Yeshivah full of B’nei Torah where (theoretically) no one will talk or read other things during Chazaras Hashatz anyway it’s okay to learn.

    #1088991

    The Frumguy
    Participant

    I mean men that are chashuvah in other respects. They are Kovei’a Itim (when permitted), get Shelishi and Shishi aliyos, wear their Tzizis out, etc. You know, Mechubad.

    #1088992

    Its better than those that text, check their email, or surf the internet on their phones during chazoras hashatz. And there is no ???? ?????? that talks about not doing any of those things during chazoras hashatz.

    #1088993

    Logician
    Participant

    Not to justify something which is probably against halachah (though I like R’ Weinberg’s pshat), but if these are our problems….

    #1088994

    Sam2
    Participant

    I forgot to mention, R’ Weinberg also said that it was a precondition that you be able to answer every Amen.

    #1088995

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Wolf – I must say, even though you’re going to hell and what not, your son is lucky to have a father like you.

    #1088996

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    One should pay attention during CH. One should not do anything that precludes paying attention (hence the mishna brura). Of all the ways not to pay attention, learning (preferably unobtrusively) is the most productive. One who is paying negative attention to others learning has completely missed the boat.

    #1088997

    g73
    Member

    The Frumguy – this is off topic, but you mention “chashuva” guys wear their Tzizis out (one of your examples). Why would that determine whether you are chashuv or not? I don’t because my family came form Lita, where that was never the minhag .yes, I know what the mishna brurah says, but I have heard from older rebbeim of mine who learned in Radin that nobody wore their tzizis out. I have heard the same about Mir, Telz and Slobodka.

    #1088998

    Yussel
    Participant

    What about learning during the other parts of davening. I see kollel yungerleit learning during the brachos of krias shema. I also see that when people come into shul, the first thing they do is look for seforim BEFORE they put on talis/tefilin and get down to davening. It gives the appearance of people who regret having to take the time from learning to daven.

    #1088999

    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    Rav Moshe did not learn during Chazaras Hashatz or Kabalas Shabbos. The Satmar Rav would walk up and down his Bais Medrash closing seforim during C.H. Why does a person think he is holier because he has a sefer open? I would bet that the Ramban or the Ari-Zal etc. would not want someone learning their seforim during those time.

    ;

    #1089000

    apushatayid
    Participant

    People who learn during davening show an utter lack of respect and regard for davening and who they are davening to.

    Either that, or they are bored because they have idea what the words of davening mean and are looking for a diversion.

    #1089001

    Bobchka
    Participant

    The M”B brings from the REMA MePano (MeFano) not to make a fuss. If you find the REMA MePano inside, he actually goes further than that and says learning doing C”H is a good thing as you are doing 2 Mitzvos at once learning and answering amein.

    #1089002

    sbeph
    Participant

    Almost every person I see spaces out instead of learn. Show me a single source that says it is better then space out then learn (it says not to learn because others might learn from you im talking about intrinsically i have a feeling most people in this post are not concerned bout this halacha) So why not start about a post about all the people that space out

    #1089003

    akuperma
    Participant

    Isn’t that when you are supposed to be chatting or texting or something like that???????????

    #1089004

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The M”B in Kuf Chaf Daled, Sif Kattan Yud Zayin says regarding those who learn during Chazaras Hashatz is “Lo Yaffa Hem Osim”. Hardly a ringing endorsement for such a practice.

    #1089005

    BHTWIA
    Participant

    Let me start by saying that people learning during C.H. is a big pet peeve of mine, so be prepared for a lengthy ramble.

    To the people who say learning is better than spacing out, I disagree. People who space out eventually space back in. If you are engrossed in a sefer, the chances of spacing back in are much smaller.

    Sorry for the rant, and thank you for reading.

    #1089006

    Sam2
    Participant

    BHTWIA: Whether or not we say T’fillah L’chud V’torah L’chud is a Machlokes Amoraim (Shabbos 10a, I think) that the Rishonim don’t really Pasken.

    #1089007

    A Giteh Yid
    Participant

    BHTWIA

    You RANT is long enough to read the whole Chazoras Hashatz!!

    BTW how should one spell HASHATZ?

    HASHATS, HASHATZ, HASCHATZ, HASCHATZ ?

    #1089008

    musser zoger
    Participant

    I always learn during Chazaras HaShas.

    #1089009

    The Frumguy
    Participant

    g73 – I was being facetious.

    I have davened in the presence of many Gedolim and Rebbes and I don’t remember any one of them learning during Chazoras Hashatz (please note spelling).

    Yasher Koach to all for backing me on this. Any suggestions on handling this problem?

    #1089010

    pcoz
    Member

    BHTWIA – the Chazon Ish says (Emunah u’Bitachon) that torah and tefilla are cyclical, torah strengthens davening and davening strengthens learning, ki Hashem yiten chachmah mipiv daas usevunah! I always thought of this as a capacitor / inductor resonant circuit.

    In a minyan metzumtzam if a person is learning during chazaras hashetz I imagine you would not have asarah mispallelim.

    #1089011

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hal’vai I was Chazaring Shas.

    But in many places this is a real issue. Rabbis of communities should make this a point of emphasis. The real issue comes that Rabbis have very little time and when you have lots of pressing Shailos, you can’t really afford to not look things up during Chazaras Hashatz.

    #1089012

    sbeph
    Participant

    This is so ridiculous SOOO many people are against learning and yet I go to any and every shul and 99.999999999999999999999999% of the people are spaced out. Give me a break, like you really care that people are not listening.

    How many people pick up sefer thinking this is a mitzvah. People are interested in what seforim. SHOW ME A SINGLE PERSON THAT PICKS UP A SEFER DURING CHOZARAS HASHATZ That thinks he is doing a mitzavah

    Oh by the way Reb chaim kanievski paskens that technically if one misses the beginning of chozres Hashatz there is no inyan to listen to the rest. AND saying Amein w/o kevanah is a real averia is for sure worse then learning and not saying amein at all.

    #1089013

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Not saying amen to a bracha is quite serious. what gives someone the right to purposely ignore 19 brachos and not answer amen, even if they ignore the bracha by opening a sefer.

    Oh, and as far as people spacing out. See the same M’B cited above for the reason one should not learn, even if will be careful to answer every amen.

    #1089014

    sbeph
    Participant

    The vast majority of people anwering amein have no ????? it s better not to say amein at all that not have ?????

    #1089015

    I agree with sbeph, If most people aren’t paying attention anyways, so why do you care if their way of not paying attention is by learning.

    Also, I give you all a bracha that relying on a heter to learn during chazoras hashatz should be the worst kulah you rely on.

    #1089016

    Bobchka
    Participant

    “USE YOUR BRAIN

    Member

    I agree with sbeph, If most people aren’t paying attention anyways, so why do you care if their way of not paying attention is by learning.

    Also, I give you all a bracha that relying on a heter to learn during chazoras hashatz should be the worst kulah you rely on. “

    AMEIN

    #1089017

    sbeph
    Participant

    I don’t want anyone thinking I’m for learning during Chazoret Hashatz. A more appropriate title for this thread is what to do about people that don’t pay attention during chazoras hashatz (no matter what type of activity they are engaged in spacing out, learning or texting etc.) One little piece of advice I can give is that while many find davening from the sefer that brakes up shmonei esrei line by line to cumbersome to use it to follow chozaras hashatz

    #1089018

    Bobchka
    Participant

    “sbeph

    Oh by the way Reb chaim kanievski paskens that technically if one misses the beginning of chozres Hashatz there is no inyan to listen to the rest. AND saying Amein w/o kevanah is a real averia is for sure worse then learning and not saying amein at all. “

    And R Chaim also says that a person learning during C”H not only does not get schar for learning but is doing an avierah

    still see REMA MePano that the MB quotes “NOT to REBUKE anyone who learns” who says in the full teshuvah “since he he doing 2 mitzvohs at the same time”…..

    #1089019

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “If most people aren’t paying attention anyways, so why do you care if their way of not paying attention is by learning.”

    The OP mentioned a specific Mishne Brurah. Aside from the fact that this statement ignores the M”B as pointed out by the OP, the balance of the M”B explains why one should not learn. Read his words. The M”B doesnt want anyone spacing out, and certainly not speaking devarim betailim during chazaras hashatz. If they see “chashuva people” not taking it seriously, they wont either. He uses the term machti es harabim.

    When my Rav shlita was discussing shnayim mikra recently, he said in the name of R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlita, that being maaver sidrah during chazaras hasshatz is a mitzvah habaa biaveira. I have no source for this, other than his word.

    Just curious. In what sefer is the hetter to blatantly ignore the shatz by opening a sefer to learn found?

    #1089020

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “AND saying Amein w/o kevanah is a real averia is for sure worse then learning and not saying amein at all.”

    ????

    See Magen Avram in Kuf Chaf Daled, where he brings down a machlokes rishonim whether one must stop those who learn during chazaras hashatz. One opinion is yes, and one opinion is no, IF they are answering amen. NOT answering amen is not an option according to any opinion (the nosei keilim discuss how wrong it is to be mivatel answering amen). As an aside, someone who has the head to learn at this time, certainly has the head to have the proper kavana to answer amen, so really it comes down to, is it better to lean, or to answer amen properly, and you seem to be coming down on the side of “talmud torah kinegged kulam”, so is OK to be mevatel answering at least 19 amens in order to learn.

    #1089021

    arc
    Participant

    As a teen, I used to justify talking by saying, you enjoy learning so you look in a sefer, I don’t but I do enjoy talking.

    #1089022

    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    “If most people aren’t paying attention anyways, so why do you care if their way of not paying attention is by learning.”

    So let’s get rid of C”H and while we’re at it, most people don’t like Tachnun either.

    [For my true opinion, see my previous post.]

    ;

    #1089023

    hello99
    Member

    If 3 conditions are met, it is Muttar Mi’Ikar HaDin.

    1) you are answering Amen to every single Beracha and aware of which Beracha you are answering.

    2) there are at least 9 other people listening to every single word of Chazoras HaShatz.

    3) noone is likely to be influenced by your actions.

    Even if all these are fulfilled, it is still not recommended.

    #1089024

    Logician
    Participant

    How many hands do you need to count the people you know whose hasmada truly is such that it even makes sense to see them using these few minutes for learning ?!

    #1089025

    sbeph
    Participant

    Please just answer my questions. You are so bothered by LEARNING during chazoos hashatz. Is that because the mishna berura says not to do it because others might learn from it. Apparently you refuse to say “not listening” is what is bothering you. It is REALLY STRANGE for someone to have that as a “pet peeve” I will show you many Mishna Beruras that are not followed. Just be honest.

    Also the magen avraham is not refering to answering to amein and not having ????? That is a very serious ?????

    #1089026

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    I’m still wondering how you are noticing others learning? Aren’t you looking inside? How DARE you answer amen while focusing on others learning?

    #1089027

    pcoz
    Member

    Reb Chaim says that the maaseh of tefilla consists of being mechaven that you are omed liphnei Hashem. (Therefore he says there are 2 kavanos in shemonei esrei – one that you are omed liphnei Hashem and – two – the peirush hamilos.)

    If someone is ‘spacing out’ during chazaras hashatz they are at least being omed liphnei Hashem – ve’haraya – becuase otherwise why are they standing there. Mah she’ein kein if they learn they are not being omed liphnei Hashem.

    #1089029

    Leyzer
    Participant

    Sorry to resurrect such an old thread – but I wanted to share a few thoughts

    FOR

    1. It’s surely not the worst Averah in the world, so one should be very careful before publicly rebuking people for it.

    AGAINST

    2. It’s interesting to note that many of the people who do this are not exactly Oisek BeOrayso Todira. Suddenly during CH they get an intense urge to open a Sefer, yet the minute Davening finishes they’re out of the door. It would really seem to be Atzas Yetzer Hora.

    3. Ironically, according to MB quoted by OP, the more rabbinical the person is the more problematic it is, as others will learn and copy.

    4. Kaf Hachaim quotes a Sefer that this is an example of someone whose Torah does not produce Nachas ruach to Hashem.

    #1089030

    Sam2
    Participant

    apushatayid: I believe the Achronim say that that Magen Avraham is referring to where the Tzibbur came while you were Davening, not that you started learning after finishing your Shmoneh Esrei before Chazaras Hashatz.

    #1089031

    WIY
    Member

    Leyzer

    Not sure everyone knows this but it’s also assur to say Tehillim and let’s say you skipped parts of pesukei dzimra and now want to go back and say them you can’t do so during chazaras hashatz(which you don’t have to halachos ally and according to some seforim is actually quite a bad thing to do al pi kabalah because you are reversing the shefa by going backwards).

    #1089032

    twisted
    Participant

    Lets peek into an imaginary bes knesses. Two are learning, one is preoccupied (spaced out to those under 50) two are talking and poof, there is no minyan for the CH. The shatz, paying full attention to his chazara, does not realize he has made 19 brochos levatala, in EY, add a bracha levatala for the cohanim. In my humble nothingnes’s opinion, the shatz not saying modim out loud, or a shatz that is too fast for the theoretical am ha’aretz to follow, this is also not k’takonas chazal, and all brocho levatolo. I have similar issues with the singing in unison with the shatz on yomim tovim, or with the shatz reading piyyutim silently. I have a very lonely existence with my shittos.

    #1089033

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Whether it is permitted or not permitted, anyone who opens a sefer to learn during any part of davening is making the statement that they would rather be doing anything, but, davening.

    #1089034

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Whether it is permitted or not permitted, anyone who opens a sefer to learn during any part of davening is making the statement that they would rather be doing anything, but, davening.

    Well, on Shabbos/Yom Tov, I sometimes find myself waiting by Shochen Ad/Hakel before the Chazzan gets there. In those cases, I’ll open a sefer – and I don’t think it makes the statement you claim it does.

    Ditto for the time between which I finish Shomeneh Esrei and C”H begins (at which point I promptly close the sefer).

    The Wolf

    #1089035

    live right
    Member

    lakol zman v’eis ……..

    same goes for those who learn during hakafos on simchas torah. there is a right time for everything.

    #1089036

    golfer
    Participant

    liveright, funny you should mention that. I’ve seen it before. And thought it was just completely weird. One person in particular loves to wear that very serious “heilige” look on his face, ostentatiously sitting in a corner with his sefer while everyone else is dancing with everyone else, including Mr Tzaddik’s little ones. Thank goodness someone’s giving them some attention.

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