August 20, 2019 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1776885mw13Participant
Over the past few weeks, we’ve heard far too many times of summer water activities ending in fatalities. I think everyone in our community should read and take to heart the following statement from Chaim Otamzagin, Commander of ZAKA Special Units, in response to the most recent drowning death: “this was a father of two small children who … went into the water just waist high with his brother-in-law and suddenly a wave struck them and he was pulled into the deep water.
“We call to everyone’s attention that being in the water without a lifeguard or on an undeclared beach poses a real risk to your life and without knowing in advance the existence of the risk and when it can hurt us, observe the safety rules and save your lives.”
Never go swimming without a lifeguard present. Ever. Period. Everybody on a boat should be wearing a life jacket. Yes, everybody. Make sure every camper has a buddy when in the pool or in a water park. This is not rocket science, simply common sense. This is the only way to prevent these tragedies from constantly reoccurring.
We should do what we can, but Only Hashem decides when there will or will not be reoccurring tragedies.August 20, 2019 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1777198Midwest2Participant
Yes, it’s HaShem who decides, but we have to do our hishtadlus, according to V’nishmartem, and yes, it isn’t rocket science to wear a vest out boating or not to swim where there isn’t a lifeguard.
We need to make water safety – and other types of safety – part of the yeshiva curriculum, starting in yeshiva ketana. I can swim like a fish, but I would never go into the water on a deserted beach at night, not even knee-high, or let any child with me do anything like that. Every neshama counts.August 20, 2019 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1777514zahavasdadParticipant
Its a halacha in the Gemora to teach your son to SwimAugust 20, 2019 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1777517
Here we go again. The Monday night quarterbacks telling us post facto that the decision upstairs would have been different had people followed their advice. As if we all haven’t gone swimming without life jackets (I’m not recommending it). We all also have menoras lit and fires usually don’t happen. This is the commenters way of thinking: “I can’t accept things are beyond my control therefore I’ll diagnose it. Just follow my advice”. But it’s done under the guise of legitimate religiosity. I’m not saying we shouldn’t take precautions. we should. Listen to your lifeguards advice. But in reality that’s is where the comments come from. Waves don’t kill people those decisions are made upstairs.August 20, 2019 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1777529
Grey- Yes! You said it better than I ever could, thank you.August 20, 2019 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #1777550lowerourtuition11210Participant
Midwest2: Since when was this part of the yeshiva curriculum? Is “crossing at the green not in between” taught in yeshiva or is is taught in the house? Same thing here.August 20, 2019 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1777572ubiquitinParticipant
attitudes like yours are destructive. you downplay potentially life saving advice “We all also have menoras lit and fires usually don’t happen” “”As if we all haven’t gone swimming without life jackets” ” Of course we have! thats exactly why these messages are critical
And that is dangerous and can lead to terrible consequences. Normally people roll their eyes at that “new batteries for smoke detectors? sure maybe one day when I have time” When tragedies occur we should acknowledge OUR (not their) dangerous behavior, not just say “Oh well these decisions are made upstairs no need to rely on lifeguards”
“The Monday night quarterbacks telling us post facto that the decision upstairs would have been different had people followed their advice. ”
Are you posting on the correct thread? Who said that. Midwest explicitly said the opposite as did the OP (ok maybe the Mod stuck it in but its there )August 20, 2019 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1777570rjh18Participant
We never will know the exact cheshbon of why these tragedies occur but we do know that we must do that teshuva is the antidote to tzar. So each of us has an obligation to think into where we are lacking and to make a plan to rectify our weakness in Avodas Hashem. If we all take these events as personal which they are and then do the required soul searching, we can bring about a better shemira for the klal.August 20, 2019 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1777569on the ballParticipant
I’m really in 2 minds whether to post this. On the one hand it is not for us to sit and preach, saying what should or could have been done differently to prevent these tragedies. Especially when there are grieving families with an unreparable hole in their lives.
But on the other hand, I think it behooves us to take responsibility and not conveniently stick our heads in the sand with misplaced bitachon. Seforim that discuss bitachon and belief in Hashem’s hashgacha are clear: If you dont take care of your life, you cannot rely on Hashem to save you. You are not a Baal bitachon. You are a fool.
You decide, mods, but I think the OP is right. Cheers, please – look after yourselves. Don’t swim anywhere with no lifeguard. Water is a monster that consumes too many victims who think they are cleverer than everyone else.August 20, 2019 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1777578
Ubiq- i really don’t think he said that at all (and I’m surprised to see you putting words in someone’s mouth). We’ve discussed this before somewhere, so pardon the repetitioncz, now IS the time to talk about being careful, more than just careful, but it is not our place to surmise or judge what those victims did or didn’t do. It’s a chutzpah to surmise, without having been there yourselves, and point fingers.
The second point of forgetting who really calls the shots, well that’s just our wishful thinking. Hishtadlus should not be confused with control.August 20, 2019 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1777586HaimyParticipant
Rav Avigdor Miller said once we shouldn’t blame Hashem for tragedies caused by our own negligence. Of course everything comes from Hashem but we are meorer Midas hadin when we put ourselves in harm’s Way. We need a major education campaign among Chareidi yidden about outdoor safety. This galus is bitter enough let’s not make it worse by being negligent. My son’s daycamp went on a trip in a 15 passenger van & the driver was clocking 100 miles per hour, he could have easily flipped & killed a few kids. We need education & accountability to stop these non stop tragedies. Let’s do teshuva on vinishmartem meod lenafshoseichem.August 20, 2019 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1777589ubiquitinParticipant
I don’t think I put words in anyone’s mouth.
The op posted a very non controverstial psa from zaka.
While of course in theory in shouldn’t have to be said the reality is, as grey matter said, that we aren’t always careful.
So instead of thanking the op for An important reminder. Or just reading it to yourself and trying to improve. He dismisses it with a condescending tone ““The Monday night quarterbacks telling us post facto that the decision upstairs would have been ” and it isnt even true since the op did not say anything would have been different.
(Truth is I would’ve ignored if not for your agreeing)August 20, 2019 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1777602
Ubiq – I hear what you are saying, and i would agree if he said that. I just (personally) don’t think he did. And seperately
The non controversial psa was great, i agree with that too. It was what *I* read as “we all know what they did wrong to get themselves there” opinion he tacked on that I found bothersome.
Guess it just proves there are deficits inherent in the effectiveness of written communication.August 20, 2019 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1777595
I do agree that acting responsibly is extremely important. And that some people downplay that. I don’t think that is the main message here. But after understanding my previous post I suppose it can be a very secondary message.August 20, 2019 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1777594
I maintain what I said as well as my diagnoses of the diagnosticians. Hashem runs the world. Our rabbis teach us that all deaths are predetermined. Hot plates, menorAs, waves and cancer don’t kill people, HKBH does. I am not downplaying the mitzva of hiishtadlus. I am merely pointing out the the reason why people tend to stress hishtadlus can be because they cannot cope with the realities of our powerlessness and submit themselves towards Hashem. It is Often not driven by a zealous feeling towards the unique mitzva of hishdatlus, rather a lack of appreciating the relatively unrelated mitzva of emuna. This attitude often if not stated explicitly you must pay attention to the tone of the comments. If you pay attention,you will notice many of these comments will not bother with understanding the details of what actually happened before laying blame on somebody or other. It is a way of making sense of the world. If there is no obvious hazard that can be blamed, they will create new ideas to solve the perceived problem. That isn’t our way. Just like after Israeli miraculous wars we shouldn’t say it is because of the brilliant generals strategy, so too after tragedies our knee-jerk reaction shouldn’t be to blame circumstances. I like what rjh18 said. Do you think there was a sudden lack of carefulness that just somehow happened in the past couple of weeks, or perhaps there is a unique message here from heaven to improve ourselves. If after this realization, it helps motivate us to work on hishtadlus I suppose that is a good thing. But for that to be the immediate response is both wrong and insensitive.August 20, 2019 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1777531mw13Participant
(.הכל בידי שמים חוץ מצינים ופחים (כתובות ל
Being negligent in cases of obvious physical danger can result in Hashem changing His plans.August 20, 2019 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #1777635MistykinsParticipant
By that mentality, why teach lessons at all? Pull out every stop sign in Lakewood (I assure you, people aren’t looking at them anyway).
Thankfully the thread here seems to understand that we need some basic safety. If you are wearing a life vest, in a boat without severe waves, no storms, etc, and something happens, it was meant to be. Otherwise, we need to look and see what safety could be improved upon.
In the meantime, (and I apologize for being rude), why did the mod have to add an edit instead of typing a comment under his own screen name?
I don’t understand your questionAugust 20, 2019 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #1777636
עולם כמנהגו נוהג sometimes we are not worthy of miracles of being saved. סכנה חמורי מאיסורי a danger requires more stringency than an issur. Hashem creates the refuah before the makah because once the makah comes, we might not be worthy to be saved. לעולם יתפלל אדם שלא יחלה a person should daven not to become sick because he might not be worthy to be healed.August 20, 2019 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1777639
Even Shmuel Hanovi avoided getting into obvious physical danger when he was commanded by Hashem to anoint David.August 20, 2019 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1777624slaParticipant
I’ve heard that there may be a connection between drowning and the pritzus of the generation, like in the time of the mabul. These special neshomos may just have been korbonos r”l.August 20, 2019 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1777644
Mod we are in the same boat I think he may have been commenting on what I said but I don’t understand his point eitherAugust 20, 2019 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #1777645
Excellent laskern that is a proof that the CH brings in gate of reliance to hishtadlus. We all agree that’s a real mitzvah.August 20, 2019 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #1777654
Once we did everything to protect against drowning and it happens anyway, then we must scrutinize our ways.August 20, 2019 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1777652Sam KleinParticipant
Anyone ready yet to wake up and face reality, admitting directly and openly to Hashem from our hearts that we accept his message and wake up call for teshuva?
All humans have the gift of free-will which means we can remain living in denial and think we can fool Hashem that we don’t understand his tragic wake-up calls and continue receing more horrific wake-up calls C”V. OR this can all stop completely right now if we just wake ourselves up to reality and openly talk to Hashem from our hearts telling Hashem that we will all do teshuva together ASAP And it should be a zchus in the coming of mashiach right away.August 21, 2019 1:10 am at 1:10 am #1777672HealthParticipant
Sam Klein -“Anyone ready yet to wake up and face reality, admitting directly and openly to Hashem from our hearts that we accept his message and wake up call for teshuva?”
I’ll tell one thing that a lot of people need to work on:
Safety – Not just around water, but all year round.
Wear seatbelts, don’t speed.
I could go on and on, but a lot of guys don’t think it’s part of Yiddishkeit!August 21, 2019 1:13 am at 1:13 am #1777675Mommy10Participant
When I was young, people didn’t wear seatbelts in cars. People realized that wearing them can save lives. There were also no warnings on cigarettes about the dangers of smoking and many magazines had advertisements for cigarettes. Then people realized more the dangers of cigarettes. When I was young, people would swim at the beach where there were no lifeguards. Now, people see the need for lifeguards. So wear your seatbelt, don’t smoke, and practice water safety guidelines. Hashem should comfort the families of the many drowning victims this summer, spareus from more tragedies, and send Moshiach.August 21, 2019 1:13 am at 1:13 am #1777674chizuk1Participant
Drowning is Chenek, per Mas’ Sanhedrin. By that logic, for those looking for meaning in all this, I assume it is possible that these special yidden are a kaparah for the dor for an aveirah which has the onesh of Chenek. There are quite a few issurim that are punishable with Chenek that should be looked into for teshuvah purposes. V’hamayvin Yavin.August 21, 2019 1:13 am at 1:13 am #1777673
They say about Basyeh the daughter of Pharaoh when she stretched out her hands and it grew, how did she know that it will grow? She put in all her effort and then prayed to come to fruition.August 21, 2019 1:54 am at 1:54 am #1777682hmlParticipant
R”L, a Chabad bochur from Be’er Sheva drowned in Mexico yesterday on a beach famous for scuba diving. This isn’t a call for Teshuva… we are doing that to the best of our ability! It’s a call for basic common sense and an understanding of nature’s danger. Preparation, protection & knowledge of the environment.August 21, 2019 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1777828Sam KleinParticipant
How many THOUSANDS of accidents have happened with people texting and driving? Do you know anyone that has learnt from it and stopped texting? Were all texting still.
So what are we really doing? We are laughing at Hashems face and saying ha ha you can’t get me to stop texting no matter how much horrific wake up calls you send us (or THOUSANDS f texting accidents) unless you make a accident happen to me C”V
This is a true honest mashal to the Times of non stop horrific tragedies and klal Yisroel not waking up to face reality and admit openly to Hashem that we will accept his wake up call for teshuvaAugust 21, 2019 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #1777875
Sam Klein, you are right, If we do aveiros and we get into dangerous situations, we don’t have פרקלטים גדולים, great defenders to be worthy to be saved through miracles.August 21, 2019 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1778073☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantAugust 21, 2019 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1778100philosopherParticipant
People are human and make mistakes. There are also many people who disregard basic safety rules. In Hashem’s great rachamim, He saves us all the time unless there’s a specific cheshbon otherwise. But now, as Rav Brudny said ” is clearly a midas hadin out there that manifests itself in mayim.”
We need to take precautions and follow safety rules and common sense, that is the first step in preventing tragedies. But clearly, with so many stories, there’s more going on than only not obeying rules.August 21, 2019 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1778107
Philosopher, it says ‘שומר פתאים ה Hashem protects the fools, but not if it is שכיח הזיקא if the harm happens often.August 21, 2019 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1778114
If the midas hadin rules says the Rav Ohr Hachaim Hakadash we have to show a mesiras hanefesh to have the midas harachamim rule, so tefila should have an effect.August 21, 2019 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1778113HaimyParticipant
Only Hashem knows why these tragedies happened. At the very least, if you’re running a camp or taking your children on an outing learn from these sad stories to be more careful. If putting your own life in danger doesn’t concern you because you have special heavenly protection, don’t endanger others. Don’t make your children or someone else’s child the korbon to be meorer Klal Yisroel to teshuva.
By the way, the pool situation in Lakewood is horrendous. Pools with no dedicated gate around them is a tremendous sakanah. My neighbor got rid of his after his young son nearly died from entering the pool on his own. Why do we need to get to a near tragedy for people to act responsibly? Why do young innocent children need to be korbonos of negligence? Are we meant to rely on Nisssim?August 21, 2019 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1778129TRUEBTParticipant
To Sam Klein:
I stopped texting while driving, so please don’t say, “Were all texting still.”
No one has mentioned life rings. There should be a life ring attached to a rope (preferably two) nearby if there is a danger of drowning.August 21, 2019 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #1778131philosopherParticipant
Laskern, what does it mean when the harm happens often? I would assume that means in a time of דין in which tragedies happen often as in our situation that has been going on this summer.August 22, 2019 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1778146
Philosopher, it is a dangerous situation where people should take precaution and it is a common thing to get harmed.August 22, 2019 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1778153justme22Participant
I don’t know if when things like this happen comments on here should perhaps be limited to “bde” and some nice comments about the niftAr at least for a few days
I imagine relatives of people who have tragedies happen come to ywn; I doubt they want to read that it was chenek or that it was because they were not smart enough when doing what ever they were doing.
I know no one said anything that meant that , but we have to be very sensitive.
Yes it is all has some truth : we shouldn’t hold cellphones while driving , G-d does decide and we do have to do tshuva ( I do seriously doubt that a commentator could possibly know what the tshuva we all need to do is for )
I think whatever can be gained from a comment can be lost if a person who is suffering a lost feels judged by us.
I remember someone commited suicide and the relatives had to read online all sort of silly coments about why etcAugust 22, 2019 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #1778350
In the news, Rav Hagaon R`Yitzckok Zilberstein Shlita says that Torah is missing this time which protects but Torah protects even when he is not learning, maybe not enough Torah learning for protection of direct dangers.August 22, 2019 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #1778467Amil ZolaParticipant
TrueBT, life rings as you call them have been obsolete for some time for a variety of reasons. They have been replaced by torpedo buoys.August 25, 2019 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1779015HealthParticipant
mw13 -“went into the water just waist high with his brother-in-law and suddenly a wave struck them and he was pulled into the deep water.”
Let me explain Ocean currents:
DON’T GO INTO THE WATER – UNLESS YOU’RE A GOOD SWIMMER!
Even in a few inches. The waves go to the shore, but it doesn’t stop there. It goes back to the sea.
It’s a semi-circle. So if the wave is strong, on the way back it could knock you off your feet!
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