February 7, 2010 3:48 am at 3:48 am #591197fan of pdMember
Why should someone want to marry a learning boy? i know the reason…but if someone has to explain to someone else why they think kollel is the way to go-how should they explain it and debate it?February 7, 2010 5:36 am at 5:36 am #674124
First of all,in my humble opinion one should NOT ever get into a debate about it. If your intention is to explain to someone why you feel it is the lifestyle you want to choose for yourself, fine. But if you are trying to “talk someone into or out of it,” for themselves, I wouldn’t do it. There is only ONE reason why someone should marry a learning boy and that is that the girl WANTS to embrace the lifestyle that the kollel life entails.February 7, 2010 7:10 am at 7:10 am #674125bombmaniacParticipant
every situation is different. but heres my opinion. learning all day long is a great ideal, however sometimes its just not possible. a person can try to sit in kolel all day, but they should have a trade nonetheless, so that if they ever need to they can get a jobFebruary 7, 2010 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #674126mybatMember
Before a person starts to look for a shidduch they should be told what they should expect being married to a kollel guy 10 or 20 years along.
They should really think about it with a open mind and with a lot of common sense.February 7, 2010 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #674127tzippiMember
I think a lot of kids don’t realize it’s not an either or proposition, it’s a now and later one. That is, now he’s in kollel, later he may well work. We don’t do anyone a service by debating it because it’s inevitable that in making the positive argument for one side, negatives will come out about the other. Why not consider them both viable options? As much as we rejoice in the rebuilding of Torah after the churban, we have not failed in our chinuch if a boy chooses not to go into full time learning, and if a girl finds such a boy appealing. We’ve only failed if the boy doesn’t have some positive and consistent serious learning in his life.February 7, 2010 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #674128tzippiMember
I may have been too shtark in saying, we’ve failed if etc. I don’t mean to judge anyone whose kids have had rocky periods in their lives. I’ve meant, that such a scenario is one that requires introspection. But my apologies if this hit anyone the wrong way.February 7, 2010 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #674129
” so that if they ever need to they can get a job “
In today’s economy, unfortunately, that doesn’t always guarantee employment. personally, I would never allow a child of mine to get married unless he had a job already, or she was marrying someone who had a job. The nebulous future “if they ever need a job” might shock them to discover that there IS NO JOB out there. So IMO, they should be ensuring that they can take care of their business, before adding another person’s life into that equation, by making certain they are already employed.
I also believe that being able to learn at will is a wonderful thing. But we are not living in a society that leaves that as a practical option for most of us. Parnassah has to come from somewhere. I know, I know, it’s from Hashem, but you know what, Hashem is the one who said, “B’zyas apecha tochal lechem” and He did not say “b’zayas apei avichem tochlu lechem,” for the future generations. Clearly His intention was for us to earn our keep AND learn and follow the Torah. If we did not earn a living, we would be unable to keep MANY of the 613 Mitzvos, as so many of them relate to farming, raising sheep and cattle, giving tzedaka (from what money, if we are not earning any?), and so forth. So many halachos relate to business practices, that it simply cannot be that Hashem does not expect us to put these laws to use in some way. And if we are not prepared to earn any living, there is no absolute certainty that we are in dire need of such, that we will find a job falling from thin air, just because that’s what we need.February 7, 2010 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #674131fan of pdMember
ok so heres a better question…..why should someone want to marry a learning boy?February 7, 2010 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #674132volvieMember
fan of pd: Talmud Torah kneged kulam.February 7, 2010 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #674133Be HappyParticipant
A learner/his wife must know and realise to have a home where the man is seriously learning BOTH need to sacrifice their gashmiyus. I am writing from experience. I am amazed how my son and daughter in law mange with much less than their other siblings because they are determined to keep on the path they mapped out for themselves. E.g No or very little air conditioning in the Summer in Bnei BerakFebruary 7, 2010 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #674134
If someone was asked this question I believe her answer should be “because I myself am committed to the “Kollel life. Because I believe in putting aside materialism in favor of spiritualism and I am willing to do with less or without to support my beliefs.”
In addition she should be asked additional questions such as:
How long do think or expect your husband to learn full time?
Who will support your family while he is learning? Have you actually sat down and figured out what a basic no frills or low maintenance budget is? And what is your back-up plan if the finances doesn’t come through?February 8, 2010 7:20 am at 7:20 am #674135bombmaniacParticipant
“yafeh torah im derech eretz” if your father in law is easily able to support you? kol hakavod. if you can live reasonably off just kolel money? kol hakavod. however, suppose your father in law gets sick, and needs the $$$ to pay medical bills…suppose your kolel loses money and needs to cut back on stipends…what then? have a fallback, a skill, a trade, that way you can still support your family without being a strain on others. granted knowing a trade doesnt guarantee a job, but it certainly helps! there is no reason to go through life completely dependant on others, a person should always try to minimize his burden on the tzibbur. now i know that in some cases people just run into unfortunate circumstances, and need tzedakah…but if you can work and not take that tzedakah…then do soFebruary 8, 2010 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #674136nossonhaleviMember
Living every moment of ones life according to the laws of the Torah is ideal. The Torah is applicable to all areas of life, in all ages and in all situations.
A thorough knowledge of practical halocho and Torah hashkofo is essential to all walks of life.
A Torah Jew should be an example to everyone on how to behave as a true servant of Hashem so that he can be a true source of blessing. As Hashem said to Avrohom Ovinu, the nations of the world will bless saying “May your offspring be like that”.
That is the true aim of a Ben Torah. Irrespective of how many years he sits and learns, he must be aware of his purpose as an individual Jew and as part of the chosen nation.February 9, 2010 2:16 am at 2:16 am #674137Josh31Participant
The default position is to marry a working man and no Jewish woman should feel that she is less Jewish because she wants a working husband.
The Torah makes it clear that supporting the family is the husband’s responsibility, and this responsibility is spelled out in the Kesubah every Jewish woman receives.
He who learn in Kollel only does so because of an ideal both the husband and wife share; and then only during the Mechilah (forgoing of one’s rights) of the wife.February 9, 2010 9:23 am at 9:23 am #674138
Why are the 2 mutually exclusive? Why cant someone work, to earn a parnassha and spend the rest of the time learning? For some, this may mean going to the office 8 hours a day, for others, 4 others less and others more. The balance can be spent in the beis medrash.
Also, there are many who simply have no hatzlacha sitting in the beis medrash 19 hours a day and lose their ability to sit after an hr, others more.
There is no “right way” or “wrong way”. There is no cookie cutter mold for every person. Your Rav/Rebbe/Madricha can/should/will advise you what is best for you.February 10, 2010 4:25 am at 4:25 am #674140JotharMember
Marry a learning boy who will later work when the money runs out.February 10, 2010 5:43 am at 5:43 am #674141charliehallParticipant
Every Jew should be learning Torah as much as possible. At every opportunity. And that goes for men and women. Most of us can’t do it full time, though. And if everyone did it full time out communities would collapse. And in my case my own rabbi opposes people who come to observance late in life ditching their careers to learn full time, because it would make it difficult for others who want to become observant and because we need to be examples for other Jews who might want to become observant. It also is ungrateful to employers who have invested in us. I wish I had more time to learn but I have a demanding full time job and a lot of people depend on me.February 14, 2010 1:45 am at 1:45 am #674142
jphone, of course you are right and that would be and should be the ideal situation in the perfect world. But unfortunately our world is far from perfect and in the attempt to reach heights of perfection we have toppled our existence upside down and inside out to the point of the ridiculous.
Children today are taught to look for things beyond their means and this applies to the concept of learning full time as well. Where one child would want a house another child would want support for the rest of their lives. Neither one has the right to demand that of their parents who have their own financial obligations to their own home and other family members (who will want the same). Each couple starting out in a marriage need to think about and plan how they will support themselves. They need to actually sit down and look at what things cost and see what kind of money needs to come in to cover the money that will be going out.
It is shocking to some, but many couples have a rude awakening when they go out for the first time to buy their own pampers. And for those men who just assume their wive’s will nurse their kids to save on formula, that doesn’t always work either. In addition make sure you are comfortable with second hand clothes and equipment for the children and other cost cutting maneuvers. That of course comes after the rent, car, insurance, gas, food, washer, dryer, etc. that every couple feels they need. Not to mention the furniture, linen and other housewares.
So if you can afford to do it, and have an agreement with someone to help support you for whatever time frame they can, appreciate it and have a good plan for when that support stops. It is not fair to expect parents to work well into their 70’s to keep your family going. JMHO.
EDITEDFebruary 14, 2010 2:52 am at 2:52 am #674144
what someone said about bzayas apecha tochal lechem- this was a curse and the more someone works, the more “curse” they are bringing on themselves. The way to get rid of the curse completely is by learning in kollel. HOWEVER, this is not an option for everyone, only for the “shevat layvi” of today’s times, and those who cannot manage don’t! Your only harming yourself and your husband. There is nothing to be ashamed of if you can’t- just say you want a ben torah who is working. Also, remember that is should not be looked upon as a something you have to do because everyone is doing it, but rather a very special privilege that not everyone can have.February 14, 2010 2:54 am at 2:54 am #674145
fan of pd: It is a special privelige of today’s Shayvet Layvi.February 14, 2010 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #674146
“[this was a curse]and the more someone works, the more “curse” they are bringing on themselves”
WOW!Would you mind showing me the source for the last part of your sentence? Are you implying that the Torah feels it brings a bracha on one who remains idle (versus getting a curse for working)? Or is it perhaps a curse on WOMEN to do the work, while their husbands learn? Does that mean Hashem cursed women with TWO curses? I think people have to be very careful with making statements such as the one you made. And I would like to explore the source of your comment, to understand it better. Perhaps we can both learn something new. My understanding was also that Hashem specifically told Klal Yisroel that following the Torah would result in a bountiful harvest for them. Doesn’t SOMEBODY have to do all that harvesting? So which is it, a bracha or a chalilah NOT a bracha?February 14, 2010 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #674147PosterMember
fan of pd: Ki Heim Chayeinu, if you taste it, you will see it is the most beautiful thing in the world. Granted some learn longer than others, that is why I used the word taste…February 15, 2010 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #674148
“this was a curse and the more someone works, the more “curse” they are bringing on themselves.”
Did anyone tell this to Shevet Zevullun?February 15, 2010 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #674149
Jphone – yasher Koach. Your answer was better than mine. Short and sweet.February 15, 2010 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #674150
People need to choose what truly works for them, but they need to do a din v’cheshbon and truly decide what “works” for them and not do what other people “expect” of them. Every year you get to sit and learn in Kollel should be considered a gift and it should be appreciated. Every wife who chooses to support her husband in their learning should be appreciated and treated like a queen. Every parent who chooses to support their children in learning should be treated with the utmost appreciation and gratitude. But in no way should a Kollel Couple feel it is coming to them and should they expect it. And when the financial sources dry up, or when a woman feels she can no longer keep working and support the family, she should be able to approach a husband and feel understood and supported when it is time to hand over the reigns of support and there should be a plan in place when that moment comes or when the time comes that parents can no longer continue support or must shift the support to the next couple in line.
In addition, when a man feels that he has taken advantage of the opportunity for as long as he can and he must now go on to the next mitzvah of being mepahrness his family, his wife, and his Rosh Yeshiva should respect him and his decision and support that. When a true talmid Torah, who takes his learning to heart and can no longer watch his wife work so hard and burden herself with so much responsibility has the chochmas lev to take over, you really have to applaud his insight and his love for his wife and family.
Those bochurim who choose to understand the mitzvah of mepharness their own mishpacha and do not wish to put that “ole” on anyone else and still find a zman kavuah to learn should be respected and supported in that decision. Each decision is “right” for the person making it and neither should be disrespected or looked down upon.February 15, 2010 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #674151
” when it is time to hand over the reigns of support and there should be a plan in place when that moment comes or when the time comes that parents can no longer continue support or must shift the support to the next couple in line.”
And yet, how is he supposed to do that if he went straight from Yeshivah here to Yeshivah in E”Y and then to Beis Medrash when he got married?When did he train for parnassah in the future? Not everyone can be a maggid shiur, and not everyone is cut out to teach in elementary school. Neither are all those jobs readily available, even if the boy WERE able to do it. So what then becomes his wonderful plan to support his family?February 16, 2010 1:57 am at 1:57 am #674152
oomis1105, many bochurim wind up taking the lstats even though they never went to college. Gemarah learning is an amazing training ground for Law. Somehow talmidei chachamim who are totally immersed in Gemarah find Law school fairly easy in comparison to Gemarah and do very well.
The idea is also that they have a plan up front. So a young man might start preparing himself a year or two before he actually switches positions by taking courses along with his learning either on-line or in person. The idea is to be responsible and not hefker about it. WE can all understand that no one knows how soon a couple will have children or how many. WE can all understand that things don’t always go according to our wishes or plans. But that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be discussed and worked on. For instance, saying that I want to learn for 7 years might not be possible. What if they have 6 kids in 7 years? What if the parents each have to make 4 more chasunahs in those 7 years and have to support 4 more couples? What if c”v there is a financial downturn? On the other hand, what if c”v there are no children or only one child and the husband has the opportunity to continue learning and the wife wants him to, should he then say “NO, our agreement was for 7 years and therefore I must stop?”
People are so foolish in shidduchim and they ask for and demand things that are not always in their control to promise and agree to. We have been trained in the past 2 decades to look for the wrong things. We are ruining our children’s lives. Look at the results of what we have caused? Divorce, dysfunctional families, shiddch crisis and poverty to the utmost levels. People need to refuse to buy into these concepts and ideas and take a stand for common sense.February 16, 2010 2:21 am at 2:21 am #674153
You took my comment all wrong! Bzayas Apecha is a curse, what originally was meant to happen was that we would sit and learn torah and bask in the shechinah. The more someone works- an 80 hr work week- the more of the curse he is taking upon himself. The only way to throw off the curse is by sitting and learning. No we should not sit idly, but my point was in reference to whoever said something about bzayas apecha. The ladies by wanting to be equal with men- did indeed take a second curse upon themselves. As for Shayvet Zevulun- once the Klalah was there, they had to work and decided to get Schar for it and to also throw it off as much as possible. I heard this from Chashuve Rabbis- but it is not Halachah L’moshe Misinai- and there are 70! different ways to explain things. If you do not like my explanantion, there are 69 others out there!February 16, 2010 2:31 am at 2:31 am #674154
“The ladies by wanting to be equal with men- did indeed take a second curse upon themselves”
Realtalk: What Jewish women who are frum, ehrliche, and b’nos Yisroel, ever said they wanted to be EQUAL with men? Women may want to be treated with the kovod and appreciation that they deserve for the responsibilities which they so admirably take upon themselves, but equality (as we understand it in today’s terms) is a non-Jewish concept.
Aries: I totally agree with everything you said, with the very slight exception about the LSATS. Most boys who sit and learn do NOT take the LSATS or go to law school. It would take too much time away from Torah for them. And even more of them do NOT make the plan that you mention, and you are right – they should.February 16, 2010 3:08 am at 3:08 am #674155
The frum girls did not! But that is what happened. My response was as a response to whoever asked that question.February 16, 2010 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #674156
“If you do not like my explanantion, there are 69 others out there!”
This is your pshat or the “chashuva rabbis”?February 16, 2010 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #674157
One should depend on parnossoh from shamayim (kollel) only if he is a baal bitachon who can BELIEVE in Hashem with no doubts… (See Chazon Ish Kidushin 82b)February 16, 2010 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #674158
This is not right… if everyone leaves jobs then no economy, no anything, no worldly involvement…
To make a long story short: Just like rebuilding the Bais HaMikdosh, save the ‘everybody fulltime learning’ for the GeulohFebruary 16, 2010 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #674159
T_L_C – Please remember that only the true Tzadikim had “mana” delivered to their door, everyone else had to go out into the fields each day and collect it for themselves and that was still relying on Hashem for parnossoh from shamaym! Hashem helps those who help themselves. Those who rely on miracles expect too much.February 16, 2010 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #674160
aries I agree completely… only a baal bitachon (aka true tzaddik) gets parnossoh from shamayim
Rabbi Zeira himself (Megillah 7b) said that he could not rely on a second miracle to save him after the lsat Purim when he nearly died at Rabah’s house: Kal veChomer if R’ Zeira didn’t rely once a year, others shouldn’t rely every day (with a few exeptions, of course, like baalei bitachon).February 16, 2010 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #674161
What was Moshe Rabbeinus bracha to Zevullun? Be happy earning a livelihood, just grin and bear it, you guys drew the short straw and have to bear the brunt of the curse and go work and support Yissachar? Is the bracha of Viasafta Digancha a klala in disguise? Is hishtadlus a klalla?February 16, 2010 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #674162
To say that it is a klalah to earn a living is very different from saying that Hashem gave a klalah to mankind and as a RESULT of that curse, they will forever have to work hard to earn their bread. Work is not the klalah. The NECESSITY to work is. There is a fine line of distinction between the two. Hashem’s original bracha was for Adam to tend the land in Gan Eden, but the food would literally come forth with little effort on his part. As a result of the first aveira in history, that food would now come forth only after a CONSIDERABLE effort. It’s like fishing where the fish are literally jumping into your net one after another, versus standing there with a pole in the hot sun for hours and hours with few bites on the line.
What is a real curse, is for kids to believe that they are entitled to have their parents totally support them when they are grown adults, just as when they were children. If their parents had had the same attitude, they would not even have the opportunity to expect that support, because the parents themselves would have no means of support. And who will support the generation born to those children who are not earning their own parnassah, when THAT NEXT generation reaches adulthood? The amount of money made by yungerleit is not conducive to supporting the next group of yungerleit.
There should not be an either/or mentality of learning versus working. BOTH should be done together, part of each day. Shabbos is a day when the learning can be more extensive. The rest of the week, people have to man up and pull their own weight in life. Yeshivahs also need to stop blinding our kids to the importance of earning while learning. Working is not a necessary evil. It is an important tool for teaching our kids the value of an honest buck,the satisfaction that comes fromearning a paycheck and putting it in the bank, and that money doesn’t grow on trees. Maybe when they have to earn their own way, they will appreciate what their parents did for them a lot more.February 16, 2010 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #674163
Work. The other 4 letter word 🙂
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