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In every shidduch thread the guys are getting blamed for wanting everything in a girl. Call me thick but I see no reason why this is a problem. If a guy can get everything he wants, good for him! Why is it anyone’s business??
You’re thick.
b/c the main issue is not the guys getting what they want. the main problem is the encouragement of values that are the antithesis of what they allegedly stand for. you are right, its no ones business what individuals do in their own life, but when it kind of becomes an acceptable “movement”, thats when society protests.
the erosion of basic values is what I find wrong, especially when it seems like “bnei Torah” are the ones calling the shots. when you hear that the guys want looks, money, yichus, talent, blah blah blah in addition to everything else (middos, chesed, etc)it seems that b/c of their status as shtark learners, they can demand whatever they want.
its also everyone’s business because of the pressure this puts on girls in our society, to always look like models, dressed to kill, say they want only learning boys (pressure gets transferred to daddy to foot the kollel bill), get into to the top seminaries, etc….
again, what each individual does is their business. when it becomes a societal thing, its a big deal. it is NOT ok to have boys demand perfection, just because they can get away with it.
GUYS GETTING WHAT THEY WANT? Since when is what they think they want what they should be looking for? Guys look for sizes, not girls. Guys look for pretty hair and face, not what is under the hair and behind the pretty face. Guys want a trophy, and not a prize. Guys have to start rethinking their priorities and wants, over what is truly right for them. Girls do, too, they are not exempt from shallow expectations. But until both sides grow up and get real, there will be a shidduch crisis.
pet peeve, Yasher Koach! Im sure you struck a chord in lots of hearts. It is what it is, and it’s time we admitted it.
Do all of these demands lead to more stable marriages? Really now.
dunno-
I was under the impression that you yourself are a female. If that is true, then I really am having a hard time understanding why you would ask this question.
I don’t know about you, but I am not perfect and I do not know any perfect people. I do know people who appear to be perfect, and may have perfect exteriors, but no one is a perfect person.
So when boys look for perfection, they are basically looking for all the externals to be perfect- perfect figure, hair, teeth skin, bank account.
Again, I can’t talk for you, but personally this makes me sick. Boys need to get realistic and realize that just because someone looks perfect, it does not mean that she will be a good wife or mother.
Why should someone who is a little larger than average not have a date for years? Why should someone who does not have a loaded father be turned down time after time? These girls deserve to get married also!
The point of getting Married is to find their other half, to be complete. Who says their missing half is everything that they want. Maybe they should be looking for what is truly missing in themselves that would complete them? Maybe they should be looking for what Hashem has in mind for them and not for the fantasy date or shtusim that they think they deserve? Are they so perfect that they think they are deserving of the perfect mate? Maybe these guys should take a reality check and ask ten other people not necessarily guys, maybe sisters and cousins to rate them and see if they come out a perfect 10. When they find their bashert it will be perfect for both of them but neither of them on their own are perfect. No one is perfect on their own. When are people going to realize that?
I know of a guy who is close to 35 now. He literally wanted an anorexic girl, not too short but not tall because he is short. He is still looking for his perfect girl but I think people have given up on him and stopped calling him. No matter who they brought him she was still not the perfect girl he had in mind. The girls got married one after the other but he is still looking for his dream girl at 35! Need I say more?
dunno; Dude! You started a tornado. I hope you realize that most
member in the CR are female. Having said that…………
I totally agree with you.
Sac; I am stunned at your reply. Do you not want all girls to get
husbands that are totally happy with them?! Do you feel that it
is your holy duty to insure that all women suffer with men that
are not satisfied with their spouse thus not giving them the
proper attention & affection they deserve. That has to be the
most selfish approach to marriage iv’e ever seen.
Who benefits from this obtuse way of thinking?
Nobody. Do you not prefer your guy to have all the qualities
you are looking for him to have?
I guess you’ll tell me that when a guy is everything you want
him to be you say “Nah! Let’s throw him back in the pond”
I’m too happy with him. Let someone else have him.
I agree. There’s nothing wrong – and everything right – for a guy to stick to his demands for a shidduch. BUT not for vanity. If his list includes physical attributes he is out of line. Not to mention he will likely end up with a “beautiful” witch, who’s got the looks but lacks the middos. But if he is looking to learn and wants a Kollel type girl, Hashem should bless him with that and everything else.
Don’t even bother, Cedarhurst. Apparently it’s the “in” thing now to blame the bad, bad boys for all of the problems.
bein_hasdorim: “Do you not want all girls to get husbands that are totally happy with them?!”
If you can prove that those who married the trophy, and otherwise fitting, wives they dreamt of, after going out with 200+ girls, have more stable marriages, and stay attracted longer than others, I surrender.
Difficult to please is difficult to please. Not gonna happen.
..and I can tell you from experience, not personal B”H,
that most guys who think they’re getting exactly what they want
really don’t get that at all! (Shocker!)
I guess you win Sac; but know this.. There’s nothing wrong with
looking for what you want, just as long as what you want is what
you should be looking for. 😉
bein hasdorim-
I think the issue at hand over here is boys demanding unrealistic things from girls.
No one is insinuating that anyone should give up on certain qualities that are important to them. Boys have the upper hand in this system so they are usually able to get what they ask for. I don’t think girls should have to settle either, but it is more likely that they will have to give up on things that are important to them.
Interesting… a boy can demand anything he wants, and he could get it.
A girl who had a few more items on her list besides male, alive and Jewish is considered picky and told to be realistic. Hello?????
dunno,
you are missing the point that boys are being crazily unrealistic and that is generating major problems in girls lives, not only in regard to shidduchim. everyone is entitled to want certain things in a spouse; when those “certain things” are totally unnatural, we as a society need to assess what is going wrong here. since the boys seem to be at the front of this offense, that is why “all shidduchim threads blame boys”. they appear to be the ones responsible. if i am wrong, and they are not the ones guilty of creating a system that wont work for too many girls, then i ask mechilla from them all.
I dont know why my comment wasnt posted if the mods could please explain that would be nice
Whether the guys are being unreasonable or not, they are getting what they want while the girls not necessarily so.
stick to your wants there is nothing wrong with that snd yes good luck.
dunno-
“Why are you upset at him for striving to get the best at everything?”
Because I happen to abhor people who are external, that’s why.
And because I am bitter that the guys could get whatever they want while I have to wait around for the phone to ring in order to get a date.
it works both ways.
i hear of many girls wanting the guy to be good looking, learner , but should have money.
doesnt want him to work in the secular world but wants him to have money.
wants him to have a nice car but dont buy a new car its a waste of money. i think i read something similar to that in the jp this weekend.
dunno, in essence, yes, that is what i am saying. maybe you look like a movie star, i dont know, but when i think of what so so many girls put themselves through to look a certain way just because our frum, middos-dik, learning, boys demand drop dead gorgeous barbies, i am sickened at what our society has come to and our standards have become.
i am not saying they should look for less. i am saying they need to look for different. i think a person has every right to demand for themselves sensitive, caring and compassionate, giving, friendly, warm, intelligent, responsible, capable spouses. they can even demand a spouse they will find attractive. BUT. when i see a system that is so off, a reality that is completely unnatural, then yes, i take issue with that. i see no reason why girls need to strive to meet impossible standards. and i am not one to say that men dont need to be attracted to their wives (as per the argument in another thread); i think that men absolutely MUST find the women they date attractive. but the emphasis that is placed on physicality, the demand that comes with it, the expectation, is totally out of sync with the rest of kind of person a ben Torah is! it doesnt make sense.
girls must strive to always look put together, pretty, feminine, and of course, to be healthy. i dont know if anyone will argue with that. but i cannot agree with you that just because the guys want it, that girls need to starve themselves, get plastic surgery, wear inches of makeup, buy multiple wardrobes, etc. if thats the case, then all girls should be allowed to demand tall, built, strong, good looking football players. which means that all those yeshiva guys need to get off the bench fast and start pumping iron big time. and grow several inches. ok? thats what our value system has come to. physical, physical, physical.
i want it. i will demand it. i will get it.
to me, this “hashkafa” sounds strangely familiar to the culture we try to differentiate from. to be better than. to have deeper values than.
this is the issue people complain about when they blame the boys. its a big issue, not just “unfair” to the girls, as you wrote. its way, way, more than that. if you want to reduce relationships to the physical elements, that would be your choice, but it is wrong to create a system where everyone else is dragged through the dirt with you.
dunno, “because it’s unfair to girls to have to strive to be what boys want”
I dont think youll find a Shadchan alive who will deny that the guys generally get girls who very much surpass the guys’ quality. The guys have been getting the better end of the deal for a long time now. Now you want girls to try h a r d e r??? What are the guys doing?
pumper said; “besides male, alive and Jewish is considered picky and told to be realistic. Hello?????”
Is it that bad? I hope your exaggerating.
If not I have to have more kavanah when I daven.
the op however is still right in their sentiment.
You cant go down on all boys cuz ur frustrated.
It is not the collective fault of the all single and newly married boys that there is problem.
many guys I know married normal girls, not the prettiest,
and definitely not the richest. just normal girls that
they’re happy with.
I’m probably gonna get flack for this but I think it started
with money, and the elite.
[Edited myself] I hope you can fill in the blanks
But the worst thing is bending to the style, even though you do not fit that type, or cannot afford that school or hall.
In the heim there was no such thing as people living like
Ashirim if they werent rich, this in my humble opinion
started a chain of events that lead to many problem in this generation.
People started bowing to imitate others they cant compete with
in anyway. No problem lets use the credit cards.
Let’s lend from a Gemach.
You have to live within your means and do whats right and trust HB”H to take care of you. We don’t have to show off to anybody.
Goyim or Yidden. I feel if we only started living like
Hatzneh.. focusing on who really runs the show,
HB”H would take of all our needs.
We CANNOT be a “Monkey See Monkey Do” kind of nation.
Feel free to totally disagree with me, prove me wrong,
educate me.
I don’t know what all the fuss is over here. I personally think the girls are so much pickier than guys these days. Yes, guys will nix shidduchim easier because they have more options before going out. However, I believe, from speaking to all my friends that so many girls say no once they actually go out for such immature reasons. The guy blinks the wrong way and bamm! He can expect a no!
A friend of mine was recently on a date with a girl from out of town. He took her out to eat and spent over 100 dollars on each of the first 2 dates. He is one of the nicest and thoughtful friends of mine. I would want him to marry my sister in a second. Anyway, he didn’t buy her anything for the trip home. He did not drop her at the airport but rather at a cuz’s house a few hours before her flight and therefore didn’t think of it.
She told the Shadchan that she had a nice time and thought he was a great guy. However it was very selfish that he didn’t bring her a care package for return trip!! And therefore she did not wish to continue. Goodbye. Now you tell me? Would a boy EVER say no for such a silly judgement??
I heard so many similar stories, I can go on for a while. . .
I have had girl’s say such crazy things to me on dates. But, I always try so hard to look past it, and see their true qualities anyway. Or see if they may have simply acted under pressure or if I misinterpreted their words etc. . .
I think girls have to give the guys more of a chance, and not bicker over petty things.
I think it’s time to turn the table around and ask the girl’s to chill out and give things a chance to play out.
(Let the barrage begin. . . I’m ducking but ready. . .)
(And no, I’m not new2thescene, that’s just my screen name. . .)
bein_hasdorim
What’d I say?
Boys should not LOOK for less, they should be more realistic in what constitutes a girl who can be attractive to them. They need to focus less on certain externals (which change with time, as do they), and more on the inner beauty alongside the outer.
because of the pressure this puts on girls in our society, to always look like models, dressed to kill, say they want only learning boys
So it is the boy’s fault that the girls are pressured to only want learning boys. I see.
The problem is not what the guys are looking for. Its much more basic than that. What they are looking for is only an outward manifestation of who they are. The reality is that many people are shallow and these guys are just proving to the world who they really are. Many girls are also shallow. May the shallow guys find their shallow zivug and live happily ever after shallow lives.
“/c the main issue is not the guys getting what they want. the main problem is the encouragement of values that are the antithesis of what they allegedly stand for….”
I think you said it best.
Guys that age are by their nature and lack of life experience are often immature. Where are their elders to guide them?
I did shadchanus for many years and found that a guy who had a lot going for him on paper was more likely to become arrogant with a “mageeya lee” attitude,whereas a girl with a lot going for her was still pretty focused on all the deeply important qualities in a guy.The guys who were either in their high 30s or had appearance issues were humble and open to anything that made sense.I guess the trick is to maintain that humility even while enjoying good looks,and other gifts from Hashem.
IMHO, the excellent posts here, of which there are many, deserve to be Quotable Quotes and gathered and published as observations on life from the wise, and here’s three I especially love:
Thank you, bein_hasdorim:
In the heim there was no such thing as people living like
Ashirim if they werent rich, this in my humble opinion
started a chain of events that lead to many problem in this generation.
Thank you, yael.e:
May the shallow guys find their shallow zivug and live happily ever after shallow lives.
Thank you, eclipse:
I guess the trick is to maintain that humility even while enjoying good looks,and other gifts from Hashem.
dunno, I’m an available and listening Shadchan who set up more than 200 dates in the last 2 years, in addition to having many many friends with BOTH boys and girls, who are recently married or currently in the parsha. I also network with other Shadchanim. I think that makes me somewhat experienced.
dunno, u wrote: “And girls should by all means demand the gorgeous football player if that’s what they want”
yeah, but dont you get it? even if they want it, they WONT get it, at least not as understandably as the guys who demand barbies will get barbies. and also, if she isnt exceptionally pretty, she for sure can’t say she only wants the best looking boys, whereas it seems that any guy has the right to demand miss model, even if he himself looks like a shlamazel.
dunno
somehow, i find your logic skewed. your attitude seems to be “so what if its a rotten approach, so what if my values are off, its important to me, so i am going to chase it anyway”.
yeah, no wonder people chase themselves in circles, they are searching for perfection, something non-existent. but if thats whats important to you, by all means, keep looking, and I wish you hatzlacha in your search.
dunno, ok, i hear your point. sorry you missed mine about the whole society thing. i guess we’re disagreeing on two different points.
Of Course wrote: “I dont think youll find a Shadchan alive who will deny that the guys generally get girls who very much surpass the guys’ quality. The guys have been getting the better end of the deal for a long time now. Now you want girls to try h a r d e r??? What are the guys doing?
I don’t get this whole attitude. What does it mean that the girls surpass the guy’s quality. You are comparing apples and oranges. How can you say the guys are getting the better end of the deal. Whatever the “market” is reality. It’s not better or worse.
I am in my early 40’s and there are plenty of women whom I would like to date who have no interest in dating me. That’s life. But I certainly don’t think that guys are always getting the better part of the deal in shidduchim.
Thank you dunno for finally restoring some sanity to the shidduch discussions here. You cannot blame a boy for wanting the best prospective life partner he can get. It’s time to stop this blame game.
Sac; I must’ve read too much into it. :0
Do you disagree with my translation of your intent with
“You’re thick.” If so, I apologize.
It’s not like me to go on a verbal frenzy based on two words.
The OP said: “Call me thick…”
So I did.
Yea, I’d say you can use a chill.
dunno
It wasnt an insult.
The problem is not what guys want. The problem is that most boys, with few exceptions, have absolutely nobody to guide them when it comes to shidduchim. The current trend of bouncing from yeshiva to yeshiva leaves little to no chance that a bachur had a real chance at creating a real kesher with anyone who can offer accurate advice and guidance.
There is nothing wrong with wanting the best,but like everything in life anyone in shidducim has to prioritize what is truly important and what can be considered a want, not a need.
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