leaving yeshivah and going to work

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  • #2106649
    Balabus
    Participant

    why is leaving yeshivah frowned upon. there are cases where its simply better for the bachur to
    go to work not because he’s a bum, but because the yeshivah system is just not for him
    i think moshiach will come when the world can finally grow up and not judge/look down at other people because they left yeshiva. would love to hear what anyone has to say about this

    #2106677
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @name isnt, what was your user name before you picked this one

    #2106676
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It is ok if he learns in his spare time.

    #2106680
    ujm
    Participant

    Who is frowning (other than one’s own imagination)?

    #2106729
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Interesting, 3 user names in less the 24 hours, I hope the fast was very easy on you

    #2106862
    akuperma
    Participant

    If he is leaving yeshiva to start working, does that not suggest the he never worked while being in yeshiva. I recall having been a student many years ago, and as I recall it involved much work. If the young people these days do not perceive yeshiva (or schools in general, as this seems to be a broader problem) as being “work”, we have a serious problem.

    #2106933
    Kuvult
    Participant

    I live in Baltimore and I’ve never heard of leaving Yeshiva to work being frowned upon. (Perhaps leaving Yeshiva without a degree so you can be a professional is frowned upon but not the concept of leaving to work.)

    #2106969
    ujm
    Participant

    Kuvult: What do you mean by “leaving Yeshiva without a degree so you can be a professional”?

    #2106972
    MosheFromMidwood
    Participant

    Who is doing the frowning? The father? The rebbi. Do what is best for you and forget what others think. On the other hand, if you are single you may have a more difficult time finding the right girl.

    #2107014
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Ujm,
    As Rav Ruderman explained to Professor William Helmreich in a January 1978 interview, “College gives a person parnossah. We find that our boys stay with learning longer this way. They don’t have to kill themselves for a job. Anyway, in business, you have less time to learn than if you’re a professional.”
    From what I understand (I never went there but know plenty that did.) The R”Y believed in college not CH”V because he believed there’s something to be gained from Secular knowledge. But because a professional making a good salary has time to learn. The one with no skills is working 1-2 jobs and borrowing from this and that Gemach always worrying how to put food on the table and has no time to learn. The business man is working 60-70 hours a week trying to run his business and has no time to learn and if the business fails he’s in real trouble. But if a Talmid becomes an accountant or a lawyer after a few years he’s generally working 9-5 and can afford a menschlich lifestyle. This gives him the time to learn in peace without parnassah issues hanging over his head.

    #2107048
    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    I’ve been a schlepper for the past 15 years, and wish I had the zchus of learning full time in yeshiva.

    #2107082
    Naftush-2
    Participant

    Just a guess: “leaving the yeshiva without a degree in order to earn a degree and become a professional.”

    #2107087
    Naftush-2
    Participant

    So he should stay in yeshiva against his better judgment because the “right girl” won’t want him otherwise… Now suppose the “right girl” wants a yeshiva man against her own better judgment because otherwise the “right boy” won’t want her. How does this shidduch play out?

    #2107101
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Years ago, in Baltimore, I had a chavruta who learned in yeshiva in the mornings, worked in a law firm in the afternoons, and attended law school at night. It was hard, but B”H he graduated, opened his own law firm, and still learns in the mornings. (And I might add he married a nice girl from a yeshivish family; she had no problems with him either working or going to law school.)

    #2107180
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Now there is the computer field training to pursue through PCS of the Agudah for bright people as I did.

    #2107179
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I agree with Kuvult.

    #2107928
    lakewhut
    Participant

    I think it depends how old he is, what he’s doing for work, and where the person is holding. Between the ages 19-23, it’s to focus on growing in learning. Once a person leaves yeshiva full time, the learning is not the same. There’s something about being in the ד כותלות of a yeshiva where the bren of Torah is felt throughout the day. Unfortunately it happens too often that a bachur leaves yeshiva holding in a decent place, and then once he leaves to go to work, he falls into a bad crowd and his ruchniyus levels go down. There’s no better “system” to be in than a yeshiva for a young bochur. It’s better for someone to be working than doing nothing. It happens to be that usually that when someone thinks the “yeshiva system” isn’t for him, it’s self-diagnosed. There are different types of yeshivas for different types of people.

    #2108064

    If you say that your best learning is before 20, either you are not doing it right or you are younger than 20… If you are learning right before you are 20, then you will, b Ezras Hashem , learn even better when you are older.

    And if you are a smart learner, you can find a couple of hours a day to get yourself a job skill. And if you are not, then for sure you need to get a job skill and not plan to earn money from your learning

    #2108158
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Balabus,

    “why is leaving yeshivah frowned upon.”

    It is up to each person to assess how he can best serve Hashem and work towards that goal. This does include financial considerations, a desire to utilize talents to serve or create things for people, etc. My guess on the frowning is that…

    “the yeshivah system is just not for him”

    is a cop-out type of reason showing that serving Hashem is likely not at the center of the man’s motivation.

    “i think moshiach will come when the world can finally grow up and not judge/look down at other people because they left yeshiva.”

    So this puts the OP squarely into troll territory, but I answered seriously because the subsequent discussion was serious.

    #2108163
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @avram
    “So this puts the OP squarely into troll territory” here is a good rule of thumb is the poster is using more then 1 user name its like a 99 % chance he/she is a troll

    #2108227
    BenchKvatcher
    Participant

    Dont be a bum and learn

    #2108645
    lakewhut
    Participant

    AAQ yes but to be able to learn all day without interruptions, the ceiling higher for potential. Take the 20 year old out of yeshiva is a risk that he falls into a bad crowd of other 20 year olds not learning.

    #2108917

    lakewhut
    > to be able to learn all day without interruptions
    > is a risk that he falls into a bad crowd of other 20 year olds not learning.

    both of these considerations have merit, but presumably these are for different people. Some may learn whole day (Steipler?) and some are at risk of falling into a bad crowd.

    In our days, with so much affluence, the first one for sure should be given a chance to grow into a Talmid Chacham. Ad kan? One Rav I know was asked, when in yeshiva, to help a shul in his community once a week. Rosh Yeshiva told him to decline as “you will be more useful for them later on if you learn full time”.

    For the second guy, you should think ahead and help him avoid problems now and also later, and that includes ability to earn an honest living and support a family, which implies either/or professional training and being able to work 8 honest hours. There is no reason this can not be done in safe environment.

    #2109118
    lakewhut
    Participant

    AAQ there are exceptions to everything but for the most part taking someone out of a torah environment at age 20 to just work is not a great idea.

    #2109245

    lakewhut? H’V, why one needs to go out of Torah environment and also “just work”. This is almost Zoroastrian division of the world into good and bad forces. Why not work in Torah environment, why not work (or study) for a couple of hours? The balance may vary for different individuals, but work is not a satan waiting for you behind a corner, it is a normal human condition allowing you to fulfil a lot of mitzvos! I heard people arrange to be able to do shiluach hakan for good money, why not arrange for paying your workers on time; being honest in business; saving human lives; giving food to poor; making free loans; catching a rodef …

    #2109775
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I guess if one does not know where the sheluach hakein will turn up should be alright to arrange it.

    #2110108

    RebE, but you should also arrange to give an interest-free loan. For that, you need to find a struggling businessman and also have sufficient – and honestly earned – funds that you can lend.

    Also, arrange for paying workers on time. I guess, you can do on a cheap this with cleaners.

    Drilling eved ivri’s ear seems illegal in USA, so we skip that, or travel somewhere else to perform.

    To catch a rodef, you may want to work as a policeman, soldier, or CIA. Maybe just volunteer as a security force at your shul ..

    There is also a simple half-pasuk that we repeat weekly, but not everyone treats this is as a mitzva (some do): sheshes yamim seavod …

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