December 13, 2018 10:29 am at 10:29 am #1643960
“Everyone should sign their kids up for pubilc school ASAP,” is the constant refrain. Indeed a great idea. Curious as to how many did it or are planning on it, I asked around and 0% of those asked had done it.
What are we waiting for?
Why isn’t Rabbi Bender from Darchei and Rabbi Shechter from Chaim Berlin and Rabbi Brudny from Mir urging the parent body to sign up for school? And what are YOU waiting for?
Go on. You can do it. Bring Andy to his knees.
*I didn’t sign my children up, due to not being a parent of a school student. But what are YOU waiting for?December 13, 2018 11:36 am at 11:36 am #1644078
Maybe I should take my kids to the beach in the summer
Or give them cigarettes
Or a gun
I can keep on going on
Do you realize what one day of public school will do to a טהור נשמה?December 13, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1644070
oh m g modsssssssssssssssssssssssssssss………………………………………..that’s like someone with a white mustache. Like Trump tweeting “I have my disagreements with Rex, though I respect him verymuch.” Like a sports announcer going, “and it seems the ball went over the fence. There were 3 people on all the bases.” Like a white-mustached man saying “excuse me”December 13, 2018 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #1644090
We’ve had this discussion before. It would not work. Search the archives for it.
The WolfDecember 13, 2018 12:30 pm at 12:30 pm #1644099
I think he meant sign them up as a threat to bankrupt the public school system. But I’m not sure that would work for the most recent problem, because most of the local school budget is from property taxes (at least outside of NYC), so it would be a nice rough-up to the local school system, but not to the state govt that’s causing this trouble.December 13, 2018 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1644147
Yeshivas should have their own secular education so they can control what to teach, otherwise you are right the government will force us to attend public schools.December 13, 2018 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1644148
So they’re registered for this year or next year, if for this year when do they start going to school?December 13, 2018 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1644280
mods if I send you a fruitbasket will you change the title back to its glorious originality?December 14, 2018 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1644862
And threatening to bankrupt a public schools system is not going to elicit a favorable public response.December 14, 2018 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1644868
Amil: It sure would result in a positive outcome if the threat was real and doable.December 15, 2018 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1644998
Lets us join the thousands and sign this petition
https://www.change.org/p/500-000-students-vs-state-education-department?recruiter=920721247&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=share_email_responsiveDecember 15, 2018 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1645024
Can’t find it. Can you post link?December 15, 2018 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1645047
Can children go to school out of state?December 16, 2018 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #1645461
Can’t find it. Can you post link?
If you go tot the search bar above and search “public school wolf” (without the quotation marks) you’ll find a bunch of the threads. Nonetheless, I’ll summarize the gist of it here.
It has been proposed before that frum Jews should all enroll their kids in public school at the same time. The idea is that the public schools would not be able to handle the influx of so many kids at once and, as a result, the board of Ed will be forced to fund at least the secular portion (if not the entire day) of yeshiva.
There are several problems with this idea:
1. There is a portion of the New York State Constitution (Article XI) which reads (in part):
§3. Neither the state nor any subdivision thereof, shall use its property or credit or any public money, or authorize or permit either to be used, directly or indirectly, in aid or maintenance, other than for examination or inspection, of any school or institution of learning wholly or in part under the control or direction of any religious denomination, or in which any denominational tenet or doctrine is taught, but the legislature may provide for the transportation of children to and from any school or institution of learning.
This is the major obstacle to having state funds used for yeshiva education in New York State. Under the state constitution, no state funding (aside from a few specified services) can be used for schools that teach religion or are under the control of a religious organization.
So, that being said, if everyone were to show up at the doors of their public schools tomorrow with their kids, the state won’t just throw up its hands in surrender and send everyone back to yeshiva because, by law, they can’t. Perhaps they won’t find everyone seats on day one, but in time, they’ll make the necessary adjustments.
2. So, you might say, let’s change the State Constitution and get rid of the Blaine Amendment. Well, that is possible, but it’s a process that takes two years at minimum. In other words, if you’re going to try to force the issue by having everyone attend public schools, they’re going to be there for two years. I bet that within two years, the BoE will *easily* be able to absorb everyone.
There is also the fact that NYC only encompasses about 1/3 of the population of the state. Even if you could convince everyone in NYC to vote for this, you still have to deal with upstate, where the vast majority of the state doesn’t live anywhere near a yeshiva and doesn’t care at all about yeshivos. Convincing voters in the mostly yeshiva-less areas of upstate New York, where the majority of the state population lives, to fund yeshiva education from their tax dollars is going to be a *very* hard sell.
That’s the legal side of things. You also have problems with the very nature of the frum Jewish community in New York that will not make this work. Specifically:
3. The exclusive nature of yeshivos in New York. My family is a shomer Shabbos family. We keep kashrus. We learn. I am a ba’al kriah in shul. But there are families in this city who would never, ever consider a yeshiva where my kids would sit next to theirs because my kids watched TV and read Harry Potter and the like. If these parents don’t want their kids sitting next to mine, you can bet dollars to donuts that they don’t want them sitting next to a non-Jewish kid celebrating Christmas, coming to school with non-kosher snacks and singing the latest pop and rap tunes. Good luck convincing those parents to send their kids to public school for a week, let alone two years.
That, more or less, is the gist of the situation.
The WolfDecember 16, 2018 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1645486
Parents who are not concerned with their children growing up frum already send them to public school. It is what the seculars want. The suggestion is analagous to saying the solution to anti-semitism is to convert (which, it turns out, didn’t work too well, cf. the holocaust).December 17, 2018 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1645825
Wolf, your demographics are off. You forgot about Lo mb g Island ( 2.8 million ) and Westchester ( 980,000) which is considered economically downstate, not upstate. So, downstate is the majorityDecember 17, 2018 9:23 am at 9:23 am #1645849
“It is what the seculars want. The suggestion is analagous to saying the solution to anti-semitism is to convert”
Exactly. I’m glad someone else sees the utter lack of logic in “let’s give them exactly what they want! That’ll show ’em!”
This idea that they couldn’t handle us just isn’t true. They would just build new public schools with taxpayer money. They would love to have Jewish brains skewing up their test score averages.December 17, 2018 10:12 am at 10:12 am #1645930
To be fair, the people advocating *registering* the children in public school before the school year, wouldn’t actually *send* their kids to public school on the first day of school (or any other day). They’d just force the city to build out facilities and hiring teachers costing hundreds of millions of dollars.December 17, 2018 11:00 am at 11:00 am #1645946
If public school is so bad, why is it suddenly okay for all the frum kids the yeshivas just don’t want?December 17, 2018 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1645953
“They’d just force the city to build out facilities and hiring teachers costing hundreds of millions of dollars.”
And, they would care why? It’s not like it’s coming out of the governor’s wallet. It’s not a private institution, and moreover it’s run by Democrats. They would have no reservations about spending millions of taxpayer dollars.December 17, 2018 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1645949
US Constitution, First Amendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
I think there is enough here to make a civil rights case – NYS is attempting to abridge our rights to freedom of religion. This arbitrary ruling, especially when it is significantly different than rules applied to public schools, on top of the fact that Yeshiva students outperform public school students, is clearly an attempt to use “rules” to prevent our study of religion. This is not much different than asserting “time and place” rules to prevent assembly (of unwanted classes), which has already been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.
I think we need to challenge these things hard and fast. Soft and diplomatically doesn’t work against people with an agenda.December 17, 2018 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1645997
Joe -“wouldn’t actually *send* their kids to public school on the first day of school (or any other day”
Another GREAT Idea! And then what??? If you cost the Goyim millions of dollars & then don’t send them to PS. Do you think that you’ll get away with this? They will hold all those kids as delinquents. Yeshiva education won’t stop the label of delinquency! What do you think will happen next?!?December 17, 2018 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1646009
Moreover, it’s time to demand first the $$$$$ that hiring the extra teachers cost (their salaries being not one penny less than what a PS teacher earns) and THEN changing the curriculum. Sorry, NCB, but I guarrantee you that would work. And demand all the $$$$$ they’re owed for the past few years of STEM.
No one, not even a lib, could argue “give us what you owe us before making demands.”December 17, 2018 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1646007
akuperma and NCB, did you not see rebbe yid’s post above???
Story: Satmar Cheder once had all students sign up for PS when the gov’t refused to pay for books, AND IT WORKED. Sorry, NCB.
To be honest, civil disobedience would probably also do the trick.
@kollelman, you might be right, but there’s no reason we have to bring in the constitution for this. IT’s (1) meddling, plain and simple, (2)taking our tax dollars and not giving us what we deserve. (3)There is absolutely no grounds for the gov’t to dictate how long you spend on the subject. Should every genius who can ace a math test without learning it suddenly have to sit through the subject, same as every other student????????December 17, 2018 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1646022
The Blaine Amendment is patently unconstitutional. It specifically targets schools that are run by religious institutions while not targeting other private schools. It is waiting for a court challenge to overturn it.December 17, 2018 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1646038
The Blaine amendment is over 125 years old, its been challenged and held up. It was actually passed because of nothing to do with jews. it was passed as anti-catholism and anti-Irish to prevent money from going to catholic schools
Sabotaging the Public school system by registering kids and not sending them, will for sure bring down people against you, even those sympathetic to your causeDecember 17, 2018 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1646052
Dred Scott was also upheld before it was overturned. Other 100+ year old laws and cases were overturned too.December 17, 2018 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #1646056
Joseph: The Blaine amendment, which is in many state constitutions, has been upheld frequently. It is based on the “establishment” clause, on the theory than any religious institution that is publicly funded becomes established.
And would you really want to have the government having a “Secretary of Religious Affairs” deciding which Rav would work in which shul, and what their Shabbos drasha would be. At the very least, government funded yeshivos would be required to toe the line ideologically, and that would be as bad as New York’s current plan to force yeshiovos to adopt secular, un-frum curricula.December 17, 2018 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1646062
Dred Scott was a federal law, The Blaine Amendment is a state law, the Supreme court has no juristiction over State laws. there is nothing in the constitution that says any schools should get public funds, thats a New York State Constitution item
BTW like 30-40 states have blaine amendmentsDecember 17, 2018 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1646053
“akuperma and NCB, did you not see rebbe yid’s post above???”
The only one I see is this one:
“I think he meant sign them up as a threat to bankrupt the public school system. But I’m not sure that would work for the most recent problem, because most of the local school budget is from property taxes (at least outside of NYC), so it would be a nice rough-up to the local school system, but not to the state govt that’s causing this trouble.”
Did they take down another one, or did you actually manage to read that in such a way that you thought he was agreeing with you? We know you meant your idea as a threat to bankrupt the public school system, but it’s not a private institution. What do you not get about this?
There have been laws for probably centuries requiring kids to be enrolled in school until a certain age. Obviously, there are various state requirements on what it means to be a proper school. None of this is new, except for the most recent attempt to ramp up the required hours. You guys are acting like it was legal to never educate your kids before this, and that it would be unconstitutional to require education. I’m sorry but this is as Constitutional as every other law regarding educational standards; it’s not different legally just because we find it harder to keep.
There are 2 things the seculars want us to do right now: change over to public school, fight back with immature arguments to the tune of “we don need no edjukation!” This thread is guilty of advocating both. Stick to the methods of the rabbis are using. There’s a reason they aren’t employing your strategies.December 17, 2018 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1646094
“the Supreme court has no juristiction over State laws. ”
When a state law abridges rights conferred by the US Constitution, the US Supreme Court can and does act to make the state law unconstitutional.
We have seen this with abortion and same-sex marriage in recent times.December 17, 2018 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1646097
“What are we waiting for?”
“Why isn’t Rabbi Bender from Darchei and Rabbi Shechter from Chaim Berlin and Rabbi Brudny from Mir urging the parent body to sign up for school?”
Question 2 answers question 1.December 17, 2018 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1646105
what are the catholic and moslem schools doing about this? the NY state “guidelines” arent directed at yeshivos specifically (even though the intention is 100% directed at yeshivos) but at private schools.December 17, 2018 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #1646100
@joseph and others
Politicians are not stupid, although they do some stupid things.
They know that Hareidi children will nor be entering public school en masse, even if they are registered to do so.
If 10,000 Hareidi children register for the 2019-2020 term this coming spring/summer (in a school district), the district will not build schools and hire many staff.
The first thing the district will do is send transfer notices to the current yeshivos, telling them buses, health services and free lunch (in form of money or food stuffs) has been cut off effective the first day of school. If the Hareidi kids re-enroll in the yeshivos it will take months to restore these services.
If some Hareidi kids actually show up for public schools they will be put in empty seats where available, not their closest neighborhood school. Similar to the baby boom days, some schools could go on double sessions,
7:30-12:30 and 12:30-5:30. That afternoon session would not be appreciated by Hareidim on winter Fridays.
Not all states treat parochial schools the same way. Here in CT we not only provide transportation within the district, but secular textbooks, school nurses, psychologists, social workers and Special Education for secular subjects. All of this to the bsame extent that public school children receive them within an individual district. So, if the district only buses kids who live more than one mile from public school, the same rule applies to parochial school. Our public schools are closed on RH and YK, but the district still provides bus service to the parochial school on those days. Our district (one town) has an Orthodox Day School and Catholic and Protestant schools from K-12.December 17, 2018 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1646199
APY: The Catholic schools are also opposing the new NYS private school guidelines.December 17, 2018 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1646262
One choice is to move, en masse, to a state that does not regulate these types of things. California is a good example. But, there are MANY others.December 17, 2018 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1646264
Actually Joseph it is only members of a superintendents group that are protesting this. The Archbishop will have to buy in. So far no word on what his position is. In the past RCC schools (at least in NY and NJ) had powerful academic programs with high graduation rates, high college entry numbers and some very fine basketball teams.December 17, 2018 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1646303
Amil: The New York Council of Catholic School Superintendents is the official arm of the Catholic Diocese that controls all 500 Catholic schools in New York State.
The superintendents have rejected the state’s guidelines and directed all of the state’s Catholic schools not to participate in “any review carried out by local public school officials.” Thus they will not allow NYS DOE evaluators entry into any of New York’s 500 Catholic schools to even make an evaluation.
The official website of the Archdiocese of New York put on a statement Friday reiterating their opposition, supporting the Catholic Superintendents announcement that they will refuse to participate in this state evaluation and even specifically lauding and backing Rabbi Brudny’s and Rabbi Reisman’s editorial in the Wall Street Journal announcing the Yeshiva’s oppose the state initiative as well.December 17, 2018 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1646317
Joseph, I defer to your knowledge of the RCC schools, with my own personal reservations.December 17, 2018 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #1646325
The whole sign-up enmasse and they’ll give us money to stay is ridiculous. They have an obligation to accept all students they cant legally buy people off to stay away. Theyll absorb yhe students. Will there be a lot of hassle, yes. Will there be sone hiccups? Yes. But they’ll figure it out because theyre required to do so.December 18, 2018 10:10 am at 10:10 am #1646511
People advocating moving to public schools have overlooked an enormous factor. Let’s say everyone does move to public schools. What happens then to the rebbes and teachers? With no students, they are out of a job. Since parents most likely won’t continue to pay tuition, how will the yeshivas other staff be paid? Yeshiva mortgages?Utilities?
The law of unintended consequences.December 18, 2018 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1646541
Sigh; again? No one will actually send their kids to PS. It’s only a matter of registering without sending.December 18, 2018 11:14 am at 11:14 am #1646571
AJ, I have news for you. At least at one time Orthodox teachers taught in public schools and probably still do as the salaries are much higher.December 18, 2018 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1646580
A bunch of phony registrations of yeshiva/BY kids into local public schools will result in a lot of paper shuffling and thousands of wasted hours of bureaucratic time entering and deleting registrations, reassigning staff etc. at a cost that will be passed on to NYS taxpayers in next year’s budget. While the educational gurus have a political tin ear, they generally know this is a hollow threat since most frum yidden wouldn’t really send their kids to the local public school, except perhaps for some enrichment program of after-school activity.December 18, 2018 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #1646563
If you register for public, and don’t send, they will arrest you for truancy. If this is done it has to be done in a calculated way on a mass scale to overwhelm the system so they will cave. There must be an end goal, not just willy nilly. At this point the state has all the cards and the Yeshivot are merely reacting. They were caught unprepared. Cringey to watch.
It is worth noting that before the 50s there were no such thing as Yeshivot in America, all religious people went to public school. To flesh out this idea to today, wouldn’t it be interesting if the thousands of Yeshiva kids did in fact register and go to public, and demand all the accommodations to which they are entitled, like all holidays off, time for davening 3x/day, time cut from secular for Torah study, kosher sections in lunch rooms etc, etc. The Muslims and other groups demand and get things like foot wash stations in airports, so….
Internally, this issue should have been dealt with within the Yeshiva system long ago. It was not, and it left an open vulnerability for those with an agenda to pounce. They point at certain ones (that do exist but not the majority) where the graduates cannot even construct a proper letter or speak with proper grammar in English. Most do but it only takes one for phonies like Moster and whoever is paying him, to publicize and publicize it and poof — regulations to teach 7 hours secular.
The 7 hours is likely a negotiation tactic and they know they will have to eventually scale it back to 2 or 3, which is what they wanted in the first place. Then when the Yeshivas “compromise” the state will get what it wanted originally. It is a trick. Yes that phony Naftuli Moster has an agenda/is being paid by someone etc, but there really should not be kids not able to read or write in proper English. Now Lipa Schmeltzer is out there saying the same thing. It is a chilul Hashem to have outwardly “religious” Jews that outsiders can point to and say “see they aren’t learning anything in these religious schools” Hashem is sending a message that this should have been taken care of preventative instead of reacting, when the other side has all the cards. Also, when you take money from the state, for busing etc. they reserve the right at any stage to tell you what to do.December 18, 2018 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1647393
Logicyid -“If you register for public, and don’t send, they will arrest you for truancy.”
I already posted THAT!
See my post Above.December 18, 2018 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1647466
Do public schools accept unvaccinated children?December 18, 2018 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1647487
Even Lipa Schmeltzer.December 18, 2018 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1647497
Navi Sheker: Do public schools accept unvaccinated children?
Yes. In 47 states, including NJ and NY, public schools MUST accept unvaccinated children with a
religious or personal exemption. So Yeshivas are being stricter then public schools which by law
MUST accept unvaccinated children.December 18, 2018 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1647509
NY law only allows for a religious exemption. If you consider your garbage to be grounds for a religious exemption, then you don’t belong in this forum.
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