Home › Forums › Controversial Topics › Let’s talk about that Yiddish and ancient Ashkenaz article
- This topic has 10 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 6 months ago by Neville ChaimBerlin.
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June 5, 2017 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1289851LightbriteParticipant
Have you read about how scientists traced the DNA of Yiddish speakers down to an ancient Ashkenaz located in or around modern day Turkey?
Let’s discuss please 🙂
Thank you!
June 6, 2017 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1289863JosephParticipantScientists change their minds about true science every few decades or so. Much of yesteryear’s science has been overturned and much of today’s science will be overturned in the decades ahead.
June 6, 2017 7:11 am at 7:11 am #1289872iacisrmmaParticipantWhat article?
June 6, 2017 8:10 am at 8:10 am #1289902theprof1ParticipantIt is well known in anthropological circles that Aschkenaz was the Hebrew word for Germany. Aschkenazic jews in fact, hardly migrated to turkey at all. Turkish jews never spoke yiddish. yiddish is well known to be a corruption of the german language. The yiddish language itself mutated into various dialects as jews migrated from germany to Poland, Russia, and the other European countries.
The term Aschkenaz is hebrew for germany. The jews of turkey are sefardic heritage.June 6, 2017 9:28 am at 9:28 am #1289942akupermaParticipantThe evolution of the name Ashkenaz is distinct. It had nothing to do with DNA. It was a name for someplace up north, and when Jews stumbled into Central Europe they wrote home and tried to explain where they were.
All Jews came from West Asia, which includes Turkey, Syria, Mesopotamia, Eretz Yisrael, etc. It isn’t like there was a pure strand of DNA in one particular place. People moved around, frequently. Just note the various place the אבות lived in during a mere four generations. What the DNA has shown, that is significant and was very disappointing to secular Jews (who don’t like being Jewish), is that Ashkenazim are not descended from diaspora converts but are from the same “stock” as all the other Jews (so much for various theories that we are really Turks from Central Asia, or some other such ancestry untainted by Jewish blood).
June 6, 2017 9:37 am at 9:37 am #1289952akupermaParticipantYIDDISH is not a corruption of German. It is a pidgeon, of what Jews had been speaking (a pidgeon of Latin and Hebrew/Aramaic) with German. It is no more “corrupt” than English is (remember that English is a pidgeon of Norman French with Anglo-Saxon “Old” English). It isn’t surprising that there are no Turkish words in Yiddish, since Ashkenazim never had much contact with the Turks.
Had the Khazar Jews moved into Europe, they would probably have brought many interesting words with them – though the Khazar Jews were primarily Greek (meaning “Roman”) Jews who fled from the Byzantine Empire (as we now call it, they were “Romans” back then), and probably moved to the Middle East when forced to migrate (Europe was still a backwater). Some Khazar descendants were located learning in what is now Spain (then part of the Arab world).
June 6, 2017 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1290087akupermaParticipantIn the above post, the word I intended was “pidgin”, though actually the more correct term would be a “creole” or simply a mixed/hybrid language, or in 21st century terms, a “Mash-up”. However neither Yiddish nor English are corrupt forms of a language.
June 6, 2017 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #1290165Avram in MDParticipantakuperma,
What the DNA has shown, that is significant and was very disappointing to secular Jews (who don’t like being Jewish), is that Ashkenazim are not descended from diaspora converts but are from the same “stock” as all the other Jews (so much for various theories that we are really Turks from Central Asia, or some other such ancestry untainted by Jewish blood).
While there are ample things done and believed by secular Jews at which we can take umbrage, I have never heard of the Ashkenazim-are-all-descendants-of-Khazars ridiculousness being promulgated by secular Jews. It’s usually espoused by anti-Semites and anti-Israel extremists.
June 6, 2017 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1290709LightbriteParticipantWhen I Googled more info about it today, and found at least two Jewish websites who pretty much refuted all of this study’s findings, so yea.
June 6, 2017 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1290718LightbriteParticipantThen in August another…
In a recent interdisciplinary study, Das et al. have attempted to trace the homeland of Ashkenazi Jews and of their historical language, Yiddish (Das et al. 2016. Localizing Ashkenazic Jews to Primeval Villages in the Ancient Iranian Lands of Ashkenaz. Genome Biol Evol. 8:1132–1149). Das et al. applied the geographic population structure (GPS) method to autosomal genotyping data and inferred geographic coordinates of populations supposedly ancestral to Ashkenazi Jews, placing them in Eastern Turkey. They argued that this unexpected genetic result goes against the widely accepted notion of Ashkenazi origin in the Levant, and speculated that Yiddish was originally a Slavic language strongly influenced by Iranian and Turkic languages, and later remodeled completely under Germanic influence. In our view, there are major conceptual problems with both the genetic and linguistic parts of the work. We argue that GPS is a provenancing tool suited to inferring the geographic region where a modern and recently unadmixed genome is most likely to arise, but is hardly suitable for admixed populations and for tracing ancestry up to 1,000 years before present, as its authors have previously claimed. Moreover, all methods of historical linguistics concur that Yiddish is a Germanic language, with no reliable evidence for Slavic, Iranian, or Turkic substrata.
June 6, 2017 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1290794Neville ChaimBerlinParticipantYes, Haaretz has in fact promulgated the Khazar theory. So yes, seculars do indeed stoop to that level.
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