April 25, 2013 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #609150
Did any of you receive the letter circulated to parents of boys and girls of teenagers in Brooklyn Yeshivos and Bais Yakovs? I was shocked that it has come to this. What is your opinion about this and do you think should be done? Is threatening expulsion the only way to get parents to keep an eye on their kids?
I just can’t believe the situation has so deteriorated.April 25, 2013 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #950708popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Where did you hear about it?April 25, 2013 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #950709
I got the letter in the mail! 5tjt reported it so did some other blogs who shall not be named.April 25, 2013 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #950710hahahahaMember
I heard about the crackdown on hangouts- there are many trying to put an end to it.
There is more than just the circulated letters- this is going to be done right.April 25, 2013 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #950711Shticky GuyParticipant
Please share the contentApril 25, 2013 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #950712TheGoqParticipant
How are we that didn’t get the letter supposed to offer an opinion you didn’t tell us what it said.April 25, 2013 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #950713
We are writing to you in the matter of utmost importance. The dangers that face our children today are well known.
It has come to our attention that Motzei Shabbos has become a time of sakanah and Yeridah for teenage boys and girls in our neighborhood. Avenue J and Avenue M and other avenues have become places where a Ben torah and Bas Yisroel should not be found.
We find it nessasary to notify all parents of the mesivta of Flatbush. Our Talmidim are not allowed on these streets on Mozei Shabbos. Any talmid found on these streets will face serious consequences.
Let us work together to see nachas from our children. and Bearaz hashem will be be priviledge dot see Moshaich in our time.
(I dont know how to get Hebrew Letters so I changed that part)April 25, 2013 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #950714
Share some info please.April 25, 2013 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #950715Yserbius123Participant
That’s like how a pizza shop in Monsey stopped opening on Motzei Shabbos after they were told that they’d lose their hechsher since it was a hangout.April 25, 2013 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #950716
That sounds like a possible idea. Maybe all Kosher pizza shops and the like should either be forced to close early or not open at all Motzei Shabbos. However at the same time its really not fair to them that because the teens dont want to behave they should suffer.April 25, 2013 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #950717
That seems unfair. Motzai Shabbos is prime business time for pizza stores in Brooklyn, and they cater to everyone, not just teens.April 25, 2013 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #950718
I dont know who sent the letter, Was it some Self-Proclaimned Vaad-Hatziuth or was it from the schools directlyApril 25, 2013 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #950719Ðash®Participant
I dont know who sent the letter, Was it some Self-Proclaimned Vaad-Hatziuth or was it from the schools directly
The scans I saw weren’t on letterhead and didn’t have any signatures.April 25, 2013 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #950720tzaddiqMember
rationalfrummie- yes they are feeding teens, and making $ but at the same time they are opening room for hangouts- is THAT fair??
a good idea, perhaps, is they should only do home deliveries, to save their parnassaApril 25, 2013 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #950721torahlishma613Participant
I truthfully think that if they are just talking, there is nothing wrong with it. A normal teenage has an attraction for the opposite gender. If you tell them that girls or boys are evil, then they will just rebel and do things which are much worse than talking and hanging out. You can talk to girls, and still be religious. In fact, for some people I know, them talking to the opposite gender makes them do even more religious stuff. If they are being shomer, and not talking about shtus, even though that often it is a waist of time, then it is better than them going off the derech. Hanging out with the opposite gender is not against the Torah at allApril 25, 2013 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #950722
Tzaddiq- still, you shouldn’t mess with mamon yisroel. Perhaps just tell store owners to keep an eye out, or even have rebbeim swing by to make sure everything is kosher.April 25, 2013 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #950723
This was from the Rabbanim of Flatbush and the Yeshivos. I’m not sure why they weren’t signed but its definitely with the agreement of the Rabbanim of Flatbush and the yeshivos.April 25, 2013 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #950724
Torahlishmah- talking and hanging out with the opposite gender- especially in crowded settings can easily lead to more halachicallly questionable situations, especially if they are unsupervised and there is loud music and alcohol involved or nearby.April 25, 2013 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #950725torahlishma613Participant
But if they are yeshiva bochurim, then they should what line to cross. If not, then I question these roshei yeshiva and rebbeimApril 25, 2013 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #950726rabbiofberlinParticipant
yserbious123- I don’t know where you live but I know of no pizza store in Monsey that is NOT open motzei shabbos.Additionally, there are many sources for hechsherim in Monsey and i doubt whether the withdrawal of one hechsher will make any difference.April 25, 2013 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #950727The little I knowParticipant
Here we go again. Looking for a way to ban things. It may sound logical, but it just won’t work. The focus, if we truly want to improve things, is to do things with kids to provide them with healthy socialization and fun. There were once Pirchei groups that made kosher entertainment available. We have placed so many restrictions (in the name of chumrah) on our homes and children that every form of kosher entertainment is banned. Result – kids go outside and seek their excitement and stimulation elsewhere. And now we are hopping mad.
Sending rebbeim to Ave. J to monitor things is useless. Throwing kids out of yeshiva and school comes next, and this will be the “Torah” sanctioned murder of these neshamos. I shudder to think about the disasters that will result from these incompetent efforts to resolve the problem.April 25, 2013 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #950728
You are simply incorrect. “Hanging out” with those of the opposite gender is against the Torah. It is assur to flirt or converse to derive pleasure with arayos. I guess is technically possible to “hang out” with the opposite gender without pleasurable conversation or flirting, but that is extremely unlikely to be what is occurring.April 25, 2013 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #950729
There are pizza shops in Monsey that don’t have seating Motzei Shabbos (they remove all the chairs), for the reason cited above.April 25, 2013 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #950730
Platonic, shomer conversations and friendships can exist between genders. Many non-Jews are “just friends” with people of different genders and nothing scandalous happens.
If boys and girls aren’t allowed to talk or “hang out”, they won’t have the skills that are necessary for shidduchim, college, and the workplace (if applicable).April 25, 2013 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #950731gavra_at_workParticipant
I guess is technically possible to “hang out” with the opposite gender without pleasurable conversation or flirting, but that is extremely unlikely to be what is occurring.
I agree, but it is possible to “hang out” next to a group of the opposite gender without any conversation.
Personally, I like the idea of having separate Pizza shops, especially on Motzei Shabbos. All Bochrim can go to shop A, all Bais Yaakov girls to shop B. All dates to Shop C (formal attire required). Seniors to shop D (AARP card check), and families (certified with Kesubah & birth certificates) to shop E.
Are there five pizza shops on Ave. J?April 25, 2013 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #950732
Why not first decide who made the letter and who signed it instead of “Rabbanim”
Its possible that FM made this up or took some Rabbi nobody ever heard of who made the letterApril 25, 2013 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #950733omerMember
There are better ways to deal with this issue. Forcing the boys and girls to leave and threatening in this way is forcing them to find somewhere else to hang out. There are bigger and better places for them to hang out and this is a much more kosher venue! I write from experience! Parents can deal with their own children individually, one way is by providing them with something productive and fun to do on Motzei Shabbos.April 25, 2013 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #950734rabbiofberlinParticipant
benignuman- but there are plenty of pizza stores in monsey that DO have full seating. I am not even aware onf any that does not!April 25, 2013 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #950735HealthParticipant
rationalfrummie -“Platonic, shomer conversations and friendships can exist between genders. Many non-Jews are “just friends” with people of different genders and nothing scandalous happens.”
There is no such thing as “Platonic, shomer conversations and friendships can exist between genders” amongst Jews. It does exist in some cases by certain Goyim. This is a Chumradika (Bad)Aveira by Jews!
“If boys and girls aren’t allowed to talk or “hang out”, they won’t have the skills that are necessary for shidduchim, college, and the workplace (if applicable).”
The first case that you mention it’s Ossur. The other cases are Mutter if it’s related directly to school or work.April 25, 2013 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #950736
I agree that they can exist, but they aren’t the bulk of what is occurring. What is occurring is flirting(in halachic terms: conversation where pleasure is derived because the other person is of the opposite gender), and that is ossur even if it never leads to anything beyond.
If we want boys and girls to be able to handle shidduchim, college or work, then have them interact at family shabbos meals with polite conversation in front of their parents. But frankly I think those concerns are overblown.April 25, 2013 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #950737
Many guys I know that went to all-boys elementary, middle, and high schools, as well as camps now feel in their 20s very awkward around girls, since the only women they ever talked to were their mom, sisters, teachers, or occasional mixed event.
And btw pleasure is almost always derived from conversations, unless its an argument or just hurling insults…
Interacting at Shabbos meals is awkward and you never know what to say. Mot parents also intentionally separate kids of the same age, if they’re teens.
My main point is that separation is good for maintaining tznius, preventing pre-marital bia, and keeping things clean. At the same time it can also make regular conversations and scenarios awkward, as well as preventing one from having good dates.
I dint think these concerns are overblown because I’ve seen what happens to guys who just left the freezer, and literally never talked to girls their age before. It can feel intimidating and downright scary.
Measures such as this only add to to the tension.April 25, 2013 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #950738
“Personally, I like the idea of having separate Pizza shops, especially on Motzei Shabbos. All Bochrim can go to shop A, all Bais Yaakov girls to shop B. All dates to Shop C (formal attire required). Seniors to shop D (AARP card check), and families (certified with Kesubah & birth certificates) to shop E.”
LOL, gaw, it seriously took me til shop D to figure out you were kidding! 🙂
I remember the whole stink about the pizza shop in Monsey- I was a JC in a day camp that summer, and my counselor was VERY ticked off…
Now I think people go to 7Eleven.April 25, 2013 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #950739
“At the same time it can also make regular conversations and scenarios awkward, as well as preventing one from having good dates.”
Whats wrong with it being awkward at first? The awkwardness doesnt last and at the end everyone gets over it sometimes it takes a few dates sometimes a whole bunch but every guy and girl gets over the awkwardness unless they have social problems in which case they are always awkward even with their own gender and they need treatment.April 25, 2013 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #950740popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I got the letter in the mail! 5tjt reported it so did some other blogs who shall not be named.
Yes, I was trying to get you to admit to reading those blogs which shall not be named.April 25, 2013 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #950741HealthParticipant
rationalfrummie -“Many guys I know that went to all-boys elementary, middle, and high schools, as well as camps now feel in their 20s very awkward around girls, since the only women they ever talked to were their mom, sisters, teachers, or occasional mixed event.”
Yes, I was like that and that’s the way it should be.
“And btw pleasure is almost always derived from conversations, unless its an argument or just hurling insults”
And that’s why it’s almost always Ossur.
“My main point is that separation is good for maintaining tznius, preventing pre-marital bia, and keeping things clean. At the same time it can also make regular conversations and scenarios awkward, as well as preventing one from having good dates.”
The awkwardness goes away after a few dates.
“I dint think these concerns are overblown because I’ve seen what happens to guys who just left the freezer, and literally never talked to girls their age before. It can feel intimidating and downright scary.”
Maybe for some, Not for most!
“Measures such as this only add to to the tension.”
So what? This isn’t any reason to be Mattir Issurim!April 25, 2013 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #950742
I am talking about pleasure derived because the other person is of an opposite gender. And we are talking about real issurim (according to R’Moshe it is d’oraisa, according to most poskim d’rabbanan). We aren’t matir issurim because they cause awkwardness.
And, as WIY said, awkwardness doesn’t last very long (especially if the boy/girl has a good dating coach).April 25, 2013 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #950743Veltz MeshugenerMember
If there’s something wrong with “hanging out”,it’s a symptom, not a disease. People think that closing pizza shops will save whatever is happening from happening, but it will just result in the type of people who would act out acting out in different, and likely worse ways.April 25, 2013 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #950744
Health: a few dates cannot instantly change 20 years of life experience! I’m not saying be matir issurim- just don’t add unnecessarily stringent regulations to further limit mixing. The formative years of ones life are the teen ones. If in those years one does not talk at all to girls one’s age, it can cause years of discomfort, anxiety, and social awkwardness.
Benignuman: a dating coach?? I don’t know from that. Most guys are just set up and expected to know what to do. They might get a word of advice from the mom before, but nothing serious or professional. That seems problematic to me.April 25, 2013 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #950745
Not necessarily. I think a lot of what happens with teens is happening because the community allows it to happen. We need to stop allowing everything to “happen.” If we dont take action now then we will just have more cleanup to do later and more OTD and more heartbreak and suffering.April 25, 2013 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #950746
I think that what schools are worried about is not the kids that will be “hanging out” regardless, but the otherwise innocent kids who might get sucked in when they got to get pizza on a motzei shabbos.April 25, 2013 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #950747Torah613TorahParticipant
Guess where I’m going to be Motzei Shabbos???
Just kidding. But seriously, this letter accomplishes the opposite of what it intended.
How many of the kids on Ave J are there because their parents sent them to hang out with other teens for some nice clean fun? They’re trying to rebel and specifically forbidding it will just heighten the excitement for themApril 25, 2013 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #950748truthsharerMember
I thought hashgachos are always telling us that their job is only on the food and not on anything else. Or is that only with regards to safety/labor issues?April 26, 2013 12:22 am at 12:22 am #950749The little I knowParticipant
I am reading some of these comments here with shock. Here’s why.
If we, as a community (parents, yeshivos/schools, shuls, etc.) do not make Yiddishkeit meaningful and rewarding, our kids will look for excitement elsewhere. All efforts to legislate this away with restrictions, bans, removal of hechsherim, etc. are all a ???? ?????. They will not work. All our fears about OTD will unfortunately remain intact and unaffected. Is there saichel around somewhere?April 26, 2013 12:40 am at 12:40 am #950750Josh31Participant
This thread made me hungry for Pizza.
I just benched after eating half of an extra large.April 26, 2013 1:01 am at 1:01 am #950752
I also had pizza lolApril 26, 2013 1:05 am at 1:05 am #950753
The little I know
Ok what can we do NOW to stop the hanging out on J and M on Motzei Shabbos other than making a blanket issur?
I think the letter accomplishes that now it is clearly assur to go and parents are now going to be held accountable for their kids whereabouts. It basically forces parents to be parents and not allow their kids to be such free birds without any rules and consequences. Now the job lies upon the parents to find and community to find suitable ways for kids to spend their motzei Shabbos. I was once a teen and I know what it feels like to be bored. Maybe its even worse today. We need to make sure there’s kosher things for the kids to do.April 26, 2013 1:10 am at 1:10 am #950754Wife MommyMember
I didn’t read most of the comments above, but I just have to ask one question. Why would pizza store owners have any responsibility for the socialization that takes place in their place of business? Shouldn’t parents be responsible for where their teenagers are “hanging out”? Responsible parents, for example, could have their teen invite his/her friends to their home for a pizza party, which they can pick up or have delivered. The blame is going on the wrong people here.April 26, 2013 1:23 am at 1:23 am #950755
Wife Mommy- it’s a bandaid.
As a teen, I can say that while most of my friends and I don’t hang out in these types of places, those of them who do would simply take another ten seconds to find somewhere else to go.
here I reach a dead end, though, because I have no idea what else they’re supposed to do to be proactive. Therefore I can’t blame them for being reactionary, because what are they supposed to do?
One thing- a lot or most of these teens (at least the ones I know) are NOT at risk or OTD in the conventional sense- they are normal teens, in that they’re in BYs and yeshivos, they learn their chumash and gemara, and are just bored and curious. There are very few teens who fit into that idealized ben Torah/bas Yisrael box. Most teens (and yes, I can say this, as I’m one myself) are just immature, curious, and trying in rather dumb ways to avoid being so. DON’T FLIP.
ANd like I mentioned above, when one hangout is closed, the next one is already being set up. From Yavne to Usha to Yavne…April 26, 2013 1:27 am at 1:27 am #950756Torah613TorahParticipant
writersoul: I think you are making an excellent point.
Do you agree with my post above (that this letter will end up working as reverse psychology)?April 26, 2013 1:41 am at 1:41 am #950757
Torah: Thanks! And I think you’re right for the most part. It’s just that it’s not only reverse psychology to taunt their parents and rebel, though that’s an element; there’s also a factor of, wow, they’re banning it? It must be cool. It’s like in Harry Potter, when Umbridge bans the Quibbler and as a result the whole school reads it. It’s new, it’s forbidden, and if this whole society that’s trying to get us to conform and do our homework instead of doing fun stuff is banning it, it must mean it’s something worth doing. That’s even before you hit the whole rebellion angle.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.