January 7, 2011 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #594045
This was inspired by the ‘kiddush’ thread. Do you let people (who you know pretty well ex. neighbors) bring food into your house from their homes?
I’ll start:I am trying to stop letting people bring their food in. Someone close to us who keeps realiable kosher and I trust them (in their homes) but I dont know if their way of dealing with kashrus is up to the standards I follow in our home. And HOW do you tell people if you dont let them bring food in???January 7, 2011 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #726154
If you don’t eat by someone because you aren’t confident in their kashrus, that isn’t a ‘chumra’.January 7, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #726155apushatayidParticipant
What does it mean you trust them in their homes, but they are not up to the standards in your home? Does that mean you trust them to abide by whatever standards they hold of, but you just dont hold of those standards? Does it mean you would eat their food in their home, but not in your home?January 7, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #726156
If they keep kosher, it is very easy to simply ask about your family standards. I eat chalav stam and pas palter. If we bring food over to someone, we ask about those two, any shechita preferences and other kashrus concerns. It’s the same as asking about possible food allergies.January 7, 2011 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #726157
mdd – That sounds pretty kroom, Halacha is Halacha – If this is his standards then he should not alter them just “not to make someone feel bad”. Of course he should try to find a different way how not to insult them, but NOT by compromising on halacha.January 7, 2011 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #726158
Apushatayid, what I mean is that for instance I wash my lettuce and make salads using all parve equipment and serving pieces. My neighbor I would think prepares everything on meat equipment. I once gave her our parve bowl to prepare salad in and she happened to put microwaved greenbeans in the salad. I asked her what status her microwave is and she answered “milk, I mean parve”. She keeps kosher( I have been in the fridge and in the pantry getting stuff to help her serve for the meal),and if she wants to prepare/serve things a certain way at her home…fine with me, and I will eat it. But I dont really want to let the stuff on my plates and stuff If I dont really know how she cooked it and mess up my parve stuff.
She also once showed me an old wooden bowl that she said belonged to her grandmother that did not keep kosher and then she once served salad in that. I guess maybe I should trust her kashrut either, but it is these rare cases and I dont want to insult her(and she will get insulted and already questions if I question her Kashrut).January 7, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #726159
Apushata, I was just looking over your post, that is exactly what I mean but I trust their kashrut, but not really the preparation/handling.January 7, 2011 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #726160
It’s pretty simple, and I’ve actually had this conversation when we were receiving meals while someone was very ill at home.
Considerate baalabusta: Do you eat xyz’s shechita?
CB: wonderful. Do you eat such and such hashgocha?
CB: what about abc hashgocha
CB: Ok, I’ll be by around 2, k?
Me: That would be great, thank you very much.
If both people are basically polite and curteous and the giver does keep kosher, you can avoid any kashrus problems just like that in under five minutes. I’ll admit, if the giver does not keep kosher, a lot more tact is required.January 7, 2011 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #726161
If someone eats cholov stam and you dont, you cant eat even non CS food they prepare with their utensils (since they use them with CS).January 7, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #726162
Cedarhurst, sometimes though don’t you think you might need to for Shalom Bayis. My brother in law keeps Cholov Yisroel and would not normally eat on Cholov Stam things(plates, utensils), but he does so at our house, I assume to keep Shalom Bayis.January 7, 2011 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #726163
REAL BRISKER, WHAT I MEAN is that Halocha is Halocha, and chumros are chumros. The problem is that way too many people do not understand the difference. You don’t compromise Halocha. Chumros are a different story.January 7, 2011 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #726164
“These are his standards”. Precisely. Who said his standards are Halocha?!?January 7, 2011 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #726165
mdd- Well what is chumros if not halacha? A hobby?January 7, 2011 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #726166SJSinNYCMember
Well what is chumros if not halacha?
Actually one of the bigger problems facing us today.January 7, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #726167
I’ll help you after Shabbos, bli neder.January 7, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #726168
Cedarhurst: First of all, that’s a machlokes. Second, in many cases you can because they would serve you on plastic or only serve cold things like ice cream, etc.January 7, 2011 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #726169Sam l AmMember
Actually one of the bigger problems facing us today.
You must be talking about kulos. Or so-called kulos.January 7, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #726170
sjs – c”v, what is wrong about being machmir?January 7, 2011 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #726171
You say it’s a machlokes. I know that the R’ma in Y.D. 115 says that cholov akum makes keilim ossur. For someone who treats today’s milk as cholov akum, if the keilim are bnei yomon, they would pose a problem.
Of course, how to treat today’s milk in the USA is a machlokes, but but we are talking about someone who is machmir.
Is there someone who disagrees with the R’ma or says that keilim are more lenient when the food is a machlokes?January 9, 2011 12:03 am at 12:03 am #726172
Real Brisker, Halocha is a set of practical obligations, which apply to every Jew. They are based on the Laws of the Torah.
Sometimes, there is a machlokes of Rishonim or Achronim about a certain obligation. At times the Halocha follows the lenient opinion. It is a ma’alah to conform to the stringent opinion, and it’s called a chumra. Chumros are not obligatory, unless accepted as a neder. A different example of a chumra is when a person does something extra, not required by Halocha, to distance oneself from aveira.January 9, 2011 12:31 am at 12:31 am #726173aries2756Participant
If you are friends and you eat in their house you would have a hard time convincing them that they can’t bring something into your house. The only thing you can say is “when I come to you I will let YOU do all the cooking, and when YOU come to ME let me do all the cooking. But honestly if you trust her when you eat by her, it makes no sense that you shouldn’t trust her when she brings things to you. It really should be either or.January 9, 2011 1:12 am at 1:12 am #726174oomisParticipant
Logically, either you trust their kashrus or not . If you trust it enough to EAT in their home, then logically it follows, you ought to trust it enough for them to BRING the same food into your home. End of discussion.January 9, 2011 2:25 am at 2:25 am #726175
Unless you fully and completely trust someone and their kashrus – plus they have at least the same kashrus standards as yourself – you cannot eat their food or in their home. Like someone said, even if they agreed to make a certain food up to your standards, their utensils they use to prepare the food were previously utilized with their lower standards.January 9, 2011 2:47 am at 2:47 am #726176
What is this business with standards? Is it kosher according to the Shulchan Aruch?January 9, 2011 3:03 am at 3:03 am #726177
My Rov’s understanding of S”A or your Rov’s understanding of S”A?January 9, 2011 3:30 am at 3:30 am #726178
If there is a known machlokes — ok. But why assume it?January 9, 2011 3:31 am at 3:31 am #726179
And the term “standards” for machlokes ha’Poskim is a misleading one.January 9, 2011 3:32 am at 3:32 am #726180
Often the utensils won’t passel the foodJanuary 9, 2011 3:47 am at 3:47 am #726181charliehallParticipant
If I will eat their food in their homes, why not in mine?January 9, 2011 3:50 am at 3:50 am #726182
“Often” isn’t good enough. I want my food to “always” be kosher, according to how my Rov defines kosher.January 9, 2011 5:20 am at 5:20 am #726183
mdd – I don’t understand you, in your last post you wrote “who said standards is halacha”, and now your saying it is!?January 9, 2011 6:49 am at 6:49 am #726184
Daas Yochid: There are many poskim who are lenient about blios of Cholov “stam” because the etzem food is a machlokes.January 9, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #726185
Gabboim, what I mean is why min’ha’stam assume such things? Do you ,also, know that something which was cooked in a not-ben-yomo treif pot is kosher ( if sharp food was not used)? Do you know that stam keilim are be’chezkas of eino ben-yomo?
RB, where did I say that standards is Halocha? You do not know the most basic things.January 9, 2011 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #726186
I don’t know if you said it or not, but when one says that these are his standards, he is usually implying that this is how he is noheg in halacha. yes standards = halacha.January 9, 2011 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #726188
“Daas Yochid: There are many poskim who are lenient about blios of Cholov “stam” because the etzem food is a machlokes.”
I wouldn’t be surprised, I just want to know who (and why; I would guess because ta’am k’ikor is d’rabbonon).January 9, 2011 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #726189
Please see ????? ??? ??”? ?”? ???? ?”? at the beginning of the ?????. Let me know what you think.January 9, 2011 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #726190
Daas Yochid: Among others, Rabbi Belsky (Torah Vodaath). That’s probably one reason. Another would be because it’s pretty hard to come up with a case where the pot treifs the food by accident, especially with milchigs.
mdd: Anything I say about the state of halacha l’maisa education in certain yeshivos will be summarily deleted, v’hamavin yavin.January 9, 2011 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #726191
RB, Go to my previous post with the definition and drei nit ken kup.January 9, 2011 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #726192
mdd, the other issue is if for example you eat Hebrew National (or whomever), but I don’t know them well enough or feel that there kashrus is not reliable, I can’t eat by you in your house or with food you made in your house with your utensils.January 9, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #726193hello99Participant
DY: Shulchan Aruch paskens that ta’am k’ikar is deoraisa. YD 98:2January 9, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #726194
mdd – Thats what standards are “they way shulchan urach states a machlokes so if there is what to be mamchmir lichumra, its still in s”u.January 9, 2011 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #726195popa_bar_abbaParticipant
And do you know that the reason stam keilim are eino ben yomo, is because it is a sfek sfeika. Safek it was used ben yomo, and safek it is pogem b’ein.
(How does that work with basar b’chalav? Which basar is pogem chalav? Does every basar dish have a chalav that would be pogem it? I don’t think we will count the other ingredients in the chalav according to the shach and taz by the boris.)January 9, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #726196
And is someone uses a hashgocho that my Rov holds is unreliable, I can’t eat anything prepared in his keilim.January 9, 2011 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #726197
“it’s pretty hard to come up with a case where the pot treifs the food by accident, especially with milchigs.”
I’m not sure why it’s so hard to come up with a case; a cholov acu”m pot would “treif” any food subsequently cooked in it (within 24 hours).
What is Rav Belsky’s reason? It might be only because stam keilim einom b’nei yomon; that would probably only apply if you can’t ask. You could probably ask your neighbor.
You’re right, but wouldn’t it depend on whether it’s min b’she’eino mino? Also, some poskim might take into account the rishonim who hold it’s even d’rabbonon in a case of mim b’mino, as a “snif”.
Nice to hear from you again!January 9, 2011 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #726198
Real Brisker, I am not going to argue with you here if 2+2=4.
Cedahurst, did you use to be “myfriend”?January 9, 2011 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #726199oomisParticipant
We are getting involved in areas having nothing to do with the OP. The statment was implied that this poster DOES eat in the homes of the people whom he does not wish to bring food into the OP’s home. That makes zero sense. That’s like eating a tuna sandwich in your local kosher bagel place, but not bringing it home. If you have no qualms about eating out in that home, you should not be hesitant about the food coming into your home. Same food, same cook, same baal habayis.January 9, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #726200
I hope you can still be friends 🙂January 9, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #726201
mdd – what? are we agreeing?January 9, 2011 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #726203hello99Participant
DY: Your right that TKI is only aino mino, and in some circumstances we may be able to use as a tziruf the Poskim who rule like Rashi that even aino mino is d’Rabanan. Especially since the Rashba who is the source of the Shulchan Aruch’s psak bases his ruling on the fact that it is an issue of an issur d’Oraisa and safek d’Oraisa l’hachmir. Beis Yosef follows him for the same reason, so there are grounds to say that TKI is a safek not vadai. However, Shulchan Aruch in YD 98:2 paskens safek TKI is assur b/c safek d’Oraisa, and is not a sfek sfeka. See Pri Megadim in 98, hakdama to Taaruvos and hakdama to Basar bChalav and hanhagas shoel v’nishal where he seems to contradict himself if this psak of Shulchan Aruch makes TKI a vadai d’Oraisa or just not a safek ha’shakul that doesn’t count for a sfek sfeika.January 9, 2011 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #726204
You’re right that the discussion turned away from the OP, but it is very relevant to the title, “Letting people bring food into your home”. Whether or not you can use food prepared in someone’s pots if you trust them but don’t eat all of the foods they do is a worthy topic on its own.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.