November 23, 2021 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #2032773
It’s common for people to assume that horrifyingly evil things are the foray of the mentally ill and incapacitated. We like to think of murderers and the like as “crazy”. We also like to think that such people are unintelligent. “Stupid, crazy morons” in slight variations is the refrain one commonly hears.
We can see from the letter, written in rabbinic prose with lots of pesukim, gemara quotes and phrases from seforim, that this isn’t so. I have never heard or dreamt of a call to even commit acts of violence dressed up in rabbinic garb….the biggest kanoim in the most incendiary pashkivil hasn’t called for bodily harm to anyone. It’s so foreign to jewish nature.
I wish the letter weren’t written this way. It’s going to be hard to read real letters from rabbonim for quite some time; the association in my mind of lashon kodesh with the unspeakable evil advocated and demanded in this letter is hurting me very much… I’m sure I’m not the only one who feels this way. To abuse snd corrupt the meaning of mesiras nefesh into this monstrosity….
I hope and daven for the lives of the children to be saved; this is a circumstance where we can and should pursue any means to hunt down these reshoim; they’re also, ironically considered rodfim in every sense of the term.November 23, 2021 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #2032808
A. What did the letter that was written in rabbinic language state?
B. How are you sure the letter is authentic?November 23, 2021 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #2032807
1. How can you be sure that the press or online reports about what they’re up to, believe or practice has any accuracy whatsoever?
2. How can you believe accusations from people that left their community, especially if they left in some disputed circumstances?November 23, 2021 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #2032829Yserbius123Participant
3. Why are you still defending a dangerous group of individuals who have been near-unanimously condemned by pretty much every Rov on the planet who ever spoke about them?November 23, 2021 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #2032831
Some people have values that go deeper and beyond their current agenda. If that was not the case, there would be no agendas.November 23, 2021 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #20328482scentsParticipant
It is not like people are using these letters as evidence to prosecute this sect/cult. However, based on many reports, including people that have not left the group, all these claims and reports seem to be pretty consistent.
Besides, it’s not like these governments that are involved fear these groups, it’s basic humanity to try whatever is possible to save the children and those that are unfortunately caught up in this cult.
People thought that Helbrans was a fanatic cult leader. When compared to the current leader(s), he actually seems so liberal.
We (as a community and society) intervene when there seems to be abuse and neglect involving children and elderly people. We should also be concerned about the alleged and apparent abuse that involving young children.November 23, 2021 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #2032850
Yseribus: Do you have answers to the questions or do you simply believe everything you read online?
Since you claim “every Rov on the planet”who spoke about it, please name the three most chushuv/prominent such Rovs, which should be very easy for you since you can pick from “every Rov, unless of course you just made that up.
N0meso: Do you have answers to those few basic questions posted above?November 23, 2021 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2032874
YesNovember 23, 2021 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2032875
As in yes I have answers.November 23, 2021 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #2032876
But I would not call those questions basic.November 23, 2021 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #2032852besalelParticipant
I would need some more evidence of authenticity including proof of chain of custody. A few questions: the letter is dated April 17, 2019. How did it come to light now? (mendy said he left the cult in 2018) In the recording the woman is telling us they were commanded to slaughter the children. The letter seems to suggest poisoning. When was the recording made?
An actual news article looking to inform the public would have included some of these facts.
I am not looking to defend Lev Tahor but i would like to know more before reaching any conclusions. We know that one individual at the head of the hunt of lev tahor also called the goy from lebanon/texas a hezbollah terrorist and we now know that this was not true. Can we hold up a second before we rush to judgment? This letter could very well be authentic and if it is, there are no words to describe the evil and horror but can we just make sure that it is, please?November 23, 2021 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2032890
Besalel: Brace yourself to being accused of being my sock-puppet.November 23, 2021 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #2032944Shimon NodelParticipant
“It’s going to be hard to read real letters from rabbonim for quite some time”
Grow up. Stop being a babyNovember 23, 2021 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #2032945
The people who left LT are still frum; I don’t see any reason why multiple people would slander their community in such a dramatic way. What do they stand to gain?
I actually have some doubts about the letter myself; they’re a pretty small group…why would they print such incriminating documents and spread them around? I’m sure they could have just as easily spoke about it in public…. it’s a really dumb thing for them to do if someone chas veshalom acted on this “rule”. The leadership would be arrested right away – they can even be arrested now on counts of incitement, and from their craftiness in their ability to globe trot, I’m sure they know that this is the case.
It’s possible, from the testimony of the mother, that such things were taught, but the letter could be a forgery…. wouldn’t change our obligation to treat it as at least a safek pikuach nefesh and safek rodfim.November 23, 2021 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #2032967TS BaumParticipant
Ujm, what are you trying to say? That Lev Tahor is not a terrible, ruthless, & guilty cult? I would be very surprised to hear a Frum Yid say that was they are doing is okay.November 23, 2021 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #2033020
AvirahDeArah, Jews did such things during the Crusades and the pogroms in times of the Middle Ages.November 23, 2021 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #2033035
They didn’t kill their own children. They instructed them to let themselves die while being forcibly baptized. Mesiras nefesh does not mean you can kill someone, it means that one must let himself be killed. Can you bring any evidence that parents beyadayim killed their children? The only cases I’m familiar with are where a baby crying would have alerted the nazis to a family in hiding. This was because the baby had the halachik status of a rodef, regardless of intent.
Also, if someone thinks that a child left to the care of a shomer shabbos jew is shmad, they are not thinking seriously, they are using their professed superiority as an excuse. I believe MO is illegitimate and full of heresy, but i would not want my child to die rather than be taken by one such person, nor would any other non-evil person.November 23, 2021 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #2033038
Shimon, I am aware of and value both my own mental health and that of everyone i teach or am close with. I confront my emotions snd deal with them; i don’t hide them or put on a false machismo. whereas the western version of masculinity is not at all compatible with daas torah. Dovid hamelech emoted to Hashem very often. What is real masculine strength is the ability to stoically control one’s emotional impulses and deal with situations from a logical vantage point, but even then a man needs to be in tune with what he is feeling in order to have balance and awareness of what is influencing his decisions. Often men fancy themselves as logical when they are in fact enslaved to their emotions.November 23, 2021 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #2033056
Avira: York, England, in the tower. (Just to answer your question; nothing to do with the OP/thread.)November 23, 2021 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #2033068
Some did. There was a machlokes about it, though. It may also mentioned in the Kinnos of Tishah be’Av.November 23, 2021 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2033069
It may be mentioned in the Da’as Zkeinim mi’Ba’alei ha’Tosfos. Two Rabbonim clashed about it.November 23, 2021 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #2033070
As far as I remember, they killed themselves rather than be converted or killed, both of which are justifiable. Killing someone else is a different storyNovember 23, 2021 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #2033096
I think each father in York killed his wife and children, and then himself.November 23, 2021 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #2033092Shimon NodelParticipant
They did kill them. You can argue whether it was proper or not, but it happened. Some did also during the holocaust but very few.
Avira, all I meant is stop being so dramatic. Do you have a problem reading an English book from Rabbi Avigdor Miller? There are many terrible people who write in English.November 24, 2021 8:48 am at 8:48 am #2033219AshParticipant
In York, the accounts say they did kill them. But it’s very different comparing a vadai babtisim (as in 1100s it was absoutely certain they would be forced or killed immediately), and a horoas shoh from baalei tosofos who were present in that tower, from present day when, even if their children were removed it’s NOT a vadai that havroas hadaas will happen.
And if the argument here is that it’s “mutar” in their preceived ciscumstances to murder children, then I think they should loudly proclaim that this proclamation is real and they are indeed prepared to murder children rather than allow removal from the cult. I think we all know how the yiddishe world will react.November 24, 2021 8:57 am at 8:57 am #2033217AshParticipant
<i>How can you believe accusations from people that left their community, especially if they left in some disputed circumstances?</i>
Yes, of course we <b>do</b> give heed to the words of Jews who have left this group. Ignoring those the few that went secular, most of the ex-members of LT reamined frum. The only reason we would discount a Torah yid who makes serious accusations against another, is under dinei loshon horah. Even under dinei loshon horah, the din of “michash miboi” and “kolo dlo posik” clearly applies here.
We could be very suspicious, and I think there’s enough evidence that it can all be 100% beleived.
Even without evidence from the inside (ex-members etc), anyone who does research on LT and look at the difference between a cult and a (lmoshol) chassidus, it’s very clear LT is a cult.
Slavishly following the Rebbe like he’s G-d, or having extreme “kashrus”, and very restricted learning is only one aspect, and indeed one that’s harder to distinguish from true chassidus so it’s a red herring. (That said, there’s no chassidus that has all 3 of these extremes, and many more – except LT.)
A chassidus does not ostracise those that leave it for another chareidi derech, and enforce entirely cutting off anyone that leaves even from their own family left behind.
That’s without mentioning ask the other cultish aspects, such as the way medication and punishment is built into their system with the pretence that it’s yahadus and halacha.
Lev lachim should rescue these poor neshomos.November 24, 2021 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #2033314Yserbius123Participant
@ujm If you look back at the now-infamous article from several years back attempting to defend LT, you will find several comments by notable Rabbonim. One of the Satmar Rebbes said that the community needs to be “rescued”. Even though this depraved article was meant as a defense, the author was forced to list several of their heinous practices, such as marriages of 13 year old children and taking kids away from parents as a punishment.November 24, 2021 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #2033330smerelParticipant
The following is not specific to Lev Tahor but these type of situations in general. LT happens to be the example because they are under discussion
Frequently when are accused and presumably guilty of very bad things all judgement other than negative judgment is thrown out the window.
Even TODAY after all the things LT has done I still oppose a mass kidnapping/saving of all the children there and having them placed in better foster homes without an unbiased individual investigation on a case by case basis.
I know LT would never cooperate with such an investigation but if you have the power to take away children then you have the power to investigate.
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