Lev Tahor – what now?

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  • #618373

    Mammele
    Participant

    What’s the solution, both short term and long term?

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/461698/breaking-guatemalan-authorities-raid-lev-tahor-cult-compound-and-take-all-children-away-from-parents.html

    Short term, I really hope there are askanim that will handle the situation and save the children from the Guatemalan authorities.

    Long term, we have a group of brain-washed parents that are in turn brain-washing and perhaps abusing their kids in the name of Yiddishkeit and chinuch. Most of these parents are themselves products of broken homes and truly don’t know any better.

    So whether we label this a cult (which IMHO it is) or not the fact is they don’t want to be helped in the way most of us would consider helpful (relocating the families, breaking ties with Helbrans and main-steaming them into Jewish communities). Is providing food, clothing etc. enabling them to continue in their manipulative and harmful ways or is it simply doing the right thing so they don’t starve? Most of the parents don’t deserve to have their kids taken away from them, they just need to be taught and helped with their parenting and finances, but this can’t be done while they are enslaved to Helbrans and his communist methods.

    #1184332

    Joseph
    Participant

    And how do you know they’re being abused? Because that’s what Channel 7 reported and the jblogosphere repeated?

    #1184333

    Who is their leader now with their past leader now being held in Israel for justice?

    #1184334

    Mammele
    Participant

    I actually wrote “and perhaps abusing their kids” because I don’t want to get into this argument here. I’m not basing my info on Channel 7.

    Kids are routinely taken away from their parents for weeks for misbehaving, food is rationed and families are given stipends which can be withheld at a whim. Their school hours/days are spotty. These kids are not growing up in a healthy environment physically, emotionally and education-wise and that’s what really matters.

    #1184335

    gofish
    Member

    I know they are being abused being my cousin got trapped in that cult. Bechasdei Hashem, with the great kindness of Hashem and lots of intervention from many, many people, he was able to get out, and lives a normal life today. I’ve heard firsthand details about the atrocities commited there. Unfortunately, the situation is terrible there.

    #1184336

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mammele, how do you know any of what you allege is true? Jblogosphere?

    #1184337

    Mammele
    Participant

    Joseph believe what you want but my sources are better than that. And that’s all I’ll say.

    #1184338

    ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????

    ?? ????? ?? ?? ????

    Since the holocaust, not a single Jewish community was persecuted as much as Lev Tahor.

    Since the holocaust, not a single community was subject to so many blood libels and uprooting from one place to another.

    It is deplorable how our math skills let us stoop so low as to allow our fellow brothers to be ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????.

    Here is the formula that allows us to stand by idly – guilt free:

    Mosrim + rumors + news reports = Facts

    This vicious cycle allows us to lead our lives knowing that a group of G-D fearing Jews are constantly being hunted down by secular elements in the Jewish community, and feel we have the right to not only allow it, but also to encourage the persecution and strengthen the Machlokes and ????? ????.

    Not once has their been a fair two-way conversation surrounding Lev Tahor, Mishpacha magazine did not even respect the journalistic norm of having the other side express their point.

    Many Rabbonim will not express their concerns for fear it will backfire and affect their support and fundraising efforts. This element of silence allows us to cowardly recommend the most sadistic measures and punishment against our fellow brothers and sisters.

    When a mattress store shuts down due to a viral ad due to frivolous mention of 9/11, a community is being dubbed by Israeli media as the “Taliban” and nobody says a word about the frivolous mention of term and what is represents.

    I urge my fellow yiden before Yom Hadin to please wake up and smell the coffee.

    This is the least I can do to declare:

    I WILL NOT FOLLOW KORACH’S WAY.

    #1184339

    Sam2
    Participant

    I’m guessing that the Yemenite (and many other Sephardic) communities would be quite insulted by your claim that no one has been persecuted more than this group.

    #1184340

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The Taliban has been persecuted.

    #1184341

    I’ll tell you what. We’re gonna open a Foster Home for them. All of them. Like the bayis Leplitis in Israel.

    #1184342

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    If the kids are being taken away, they should be sent to normal Torah observant communities to be raised how they should have been in the first place. Unfortunately, the authorities will probably secularize them and they’ll all end up being interviewed on liberal news networks about how horrible Judaism is. Don’t any of you forgot, probably well over 50% of goyim consider all Orthodox Jews to be a cult. You can pretty much get that vibe if you watch 2 minutes of the clip with the YWN article. Even if this is the end of Lev Tahor, it’s far from being the end of their legacy being used by the secularists…

    #1184343

    SeekingTruth26, are you a fan of Helbrans?

    What do you base your defense of them upon?

    What is the source of your information?

    Have you lived with them?

    #1184344

    I have family there.

    I also freelance, and I visited the community numerous times, and was invited to their homes.

    I actually just received a document from one of the families, the doc was written by a child welfare worker which states that their inspection of the home and children was found to be satisfactory.

    Just so you know, the imvestigations started after two former members reported to the authorities regarding the education.

    Under Quebec law, any child that does not receive an education equivalent to the public school education, is considered ‘neglected’ and ‘abused’.

    When the community failed to reach a compromise with the education minister,the minister threatened with a letter stating that under Quebec law, he has no choice but to refer the matter to the youth protection agency.

    On a side but important note, When Stephen Harper was prime minister of Canada, it was a known fact that Israel was the third rail of Canadian politics and many policies.

    It was also obvious from Israeli cabinet meetings (which were videotaped and downloaded, the knesset has since taken them down) that Israel was very keen on breaking the community at any cost.

    Those two facts were the main driving force behind the investigations.

    Homes were searched numerous times and nothing was found.

    The Israeli government has only rehashed the false allegations and bribed officials in Guatemala to conduct a raid which was obviously done without any regard to the welfare of the children.

    The officials came at 6 am and simply broke down doors and raided home after home only to find nothing. Zilch. Zero. Nada.

    It is sickening to see the comments on social media and news outlets, with no regard to Jewish men woman and children.

    Anyone who has had an honest conversation with individuals from Lev Tahor know that they are riteous and fine people.

    I urge all to get facts not from the Media or hearsay, rather facts from people who were there firsthand. (There are many individuals who have peacefully left the community after feeling it was not for them. Only a countless few hold a grudge and chip on their shoulder and find no happiness until the community is decimated completely, chas v’sholom).

    There are many individuals who left the Orthodox Jewish community, yet only a select few, with hatred, go to the media and badmouth orthodox Judaism. Just search ‘Othodox Jews’ on video sites, and see how many angry youngsters are appearing on television.

    If we don’t protest in support of Lev Tahor who’s to say we are not next?

    We live in a wonderful country where the status quo of the education and aspects of Jewish life was respected.

    Only when disgrunted individuals went to the court system, did the government get involved.

    There are so many facts to show and things to say revolving around Lev Tahor, so many misjustices that befell their part with terrible consequences, I implore upon all ?????? ??? ?????? to open their hearts and minds to these helpless people and see to assist them in amy way possible.

    #1184345

    Mammele
    Participant

    ST26: I don’t see anyone here in the CR condoning their persecution by the goverrnment. The question I had was what can be done to help them, because whether you believe the media or not, these people are in dire straits physically, emotionally and financially and need our help.

    And it must be on our terms because if not their leaders will just take the money and run yet again. The only way these families can have stability is if they agree to change. If you call that persecution be that as it may; their living conditions and lifestyle is not something I can support.

    #1184346

    Mammele
    Participant

    ST26: Okay, my last post was in response to your first post.

    No one said the people are not righteous. Problem is their leaders are corrupt and manipulative. They are temimos’dig and embrace what they are taught. They are also very protective of their so called lifestyle so it’s hard to get the truth out of them. Many of the parents grew up in broken homes and don’t know how to handle their kids.

    On top of that their system is horrendous and the people lack funds for the basics. If you donate money to them you have no control over who’s pockets you’ll line – or if it will be used fairly.

    #1184347

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mammele, they (the people, not just the leadership) will not accept your terms and will not agree to change. Moving to Guatamala more than proved that.

    #1184348

    Mammele
    Participant

    One more point: the fact that you opened your account on YW today to make comments here and on this news article makes me question your credibility. So in my eyes you are simply a PR hack.

    #1184349

    Mammele
    Participant

    Joseph: I know, that’s why my OP was a request for a solution. Hopefully someone can come up with some brainstormed idea, but I guess it won’t be on the CR. I wanted to bring awareness though, as we definitely need intervention.

    #1184350

    While they were in Quebec they did not lack funds for basic necessities.

    Now that they do lack basic necessities, it’s due to their persecution.

    Do you want to help financially with funds for food or shelter? Are you worried the funds will be diverted to other causes?

    A simple solution would be to have a committee of local Rabbonim who will oversee the distributions and ensure go to the necesary cause.

    If you need help coordinating, let me know.

    As far as the comments go, it seems most want to see a ‘final solution’ for this community ??”?

    #1184351

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    There are certainly posters denying that they’re being “persecuted.” They’re being PROSECUTED. And, don’t say the jury is still out; you can see in the article that they’ve been found guilty of kidnapping in the past. I don’t see how a kidnapper can be considered “righteous” just because they go to extremes like making their girls dress like Muslims, completely ignoring the Chasam Sofer’s “anything new is assur.”

    We look out for each other in the frum community, but you have to know when to draw the line. It is possible that people who look totally frum, actually are not fully sane and are doing very bad things.

    #1184352

    To Mammeleh: Do you ever visit a news website often without having an account? Well I do, and until this last straw was broken I never had a reason to open an account, a simple scroll through the newsfeed was enough for me.

    #1184353

    Mammele
    Participant

    ST26: Perhaps conditions in Quebec were not as deplorable, but it was very far from ideal.

    Neville: don’t lump them all in one basket, most of their members are to be pitied, not shunned.

    #1184354

    Nobody here should pay attention to what the member TruthSeeker wrote in this particular thread. Because Truthseeker is writing from his Journalist reporting mind.

    I was a member of the cult. I ran a way with my husband. I know its not normal okay? We were lucky to get out! I just want everyone to know that.

    That truth seeker has not seen hunger on a child’s face in a first world country where there is no excuse for that, except for some false prophets’ claim, that, EVERYTHING is Treif except flour, oil and salt.

    Truth Seeker never saw the depressive lifeless faces of the women I knew.

    Never heard my friend’s whispering “i wish I would just die”. You gotta wonder how bad it was, when Death is the better option.

    I know. I am a witness.

    #1184355

    yeshivishe kup
    Participant

    what exactly is lev tahor?

    #1184356

    Sparkly
    Member

    yeshivishe kup – VERY good video that was posted on yeshiva world.

    #1184358

    Mammele
    Participant

    ARWSF: I admire your bravery. And thanks for coming out publicly here.

    #1184359

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    ARWSF: WOW. I’m sure it took a lot of courage to write it down here. How is your family doing now?

    #1184360

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    ARWSF, I never knew that

    Glad you got out!!

    #1184361

    golfer
    Participant

    Alwaysrunsws, I read and reread your post.

    I can’t begin to imagine what hard times you must have been through.

    Or how hard it was to share that.

    Can you tell us how you’re doing and how your children are?

    I hope you’ve found kindness and understanding wherever you are.

    #1184363

    Health
    Participant

    Seeking truth -“While they were in Quebec they did not lack funds for basic necessities.

    Now that they do lack basic necessities, it’s due to their persecution.

    Do you want to help financially with funds for food or shelter? Are you worried the funds will be diverted to other causes?”

    If any of your posts are even slightly true – if they needed to get out of Quebec, why Guatemala? They could’ve moved to Ontario!

    It just seems when there’s smoke, there’s fire!

    In this country, even if s/o claims that the kids are abused or neglected, there’s a major investigation!

    #1184364

    Mammele
    Participant

    Health: hopefully ST26 has been scared away by the real truth here… Or he doesn’t have regular internet access and was only granted temporary acccess by his superiors for the purpose of PR.

    One small correction, the group did first move to Chatham, Ontario before fleeing to Guatemala. It didn’t help them so they fled to Guatemala.

    The National Post had a more detailed article on this story. And it seems Yeshiva World was wrong in their article and the children weren’t taken away during the raid, but they didn’t bother correcting it.

    If any of you haven’t seen it, here’s the latest video about the raid posted on YW. Would have been nice if they translated it.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/ywn-videos/463588/watch-members-of-lev-tahor-cult-describing-how-authorities-raided-their-compound.html

    #1184366

    YesOrNo
    Participant

    Any updates?

    #1184367

    Health
    Participant

    Mammele -“Health: if you wanted to make that point, this was the wrong thread to do so, and sends the wrong message.”

    Is this topic good enough for you?

    “Yad L’achim rescues women and children THAT WANT TO BE RESCUED. Unfortunately, most of the cult members are brain-washed and want to stay where they are. Those that want to leave, have gotten and most likely will get help to do so, especially if they have supportive family on the other side. I agree more should be done though.”

    So you’re saying it’s up to them – we’ll let them do what they want!

    As a matter of fact, let’s get rid of all child protection services in

    all the Western countries because we should let the parents do what they want!

    “That truth seeker has not seen hunger on a child’s face in a first world country where there is no excuse for that, except for some false prophets’ claim, that, EVERYTHING is Treif except flour, oil and salt.”

    If they want to treat their kids’ like this – we should let the parents do what they want!

    #1184368

    Mammele
    Participant

    I don’t think even ARWSF would advocate taking the children away from their parents. As we are Rachmanim bnei Rachmonim we really have to get the leadership away first, and then work with the families to get them the help they need. It’s not just the kids that are suffering — although they are the most vulnerable.

    These children have a very hard time adjusting to the real world, and uprooting them from the families they love will make the adjustment almost impossible. However, if the PARENTS are actually guilty of abuse and neglect OF THEIR CHOOSING (not by simply being there) there is probably no choice but to get their kids into heimish, vetted foster care. We can’t just “rescue” them and dump them into the general system.

    #1184369

    Joseph
    Participant

    If the government kidnaps their children, you can be dang sure they aren’t going to place them “into heimish, vetted foster care”. They will bring them up like goyim.

    #1184370

    Sparkly
    Member

    Joseph – i agree. but then some nice jew like joseph can adopt some nice jewish kids and raise them jewish.

    #1184371

    Health
    Participant

    Joe -“If the government kidnaps their children, you can be dang sure they aren’t going to place them “into heimish, vetted foster care”. They will bring them up like goyim.”

    Stop with your fear mongering!

    #1184372

    Health
    Participant

    Mammele -“I don’t think even ARWSF would advocate taking the children away from their parents. As we are Rachmanim bnei Rachmonim we really have to get the leadership away first, and then work with the families to get them the help they need. It’s not just the kids that are suffering — although they are the most vulnerable.”

    You might be right about the adults, but the kids come first!

    “These children have a very hard time adjusting to the real world, and uprooting them from the families they love will make the adjustment almost impossible. However, if the PARENTS are actually guilty of abuse and neglect OF THEIR CHOOSING (not by simply being there) there is probably no choice but to get their kids into heimish, vetted foster care”

    You probably live in some sort of seclusion!

    They take Frum kids away all the time! But if people put up a fight, the government will try to put them in a Frum environment!

    Leaving the kids to be neglected and abused is not a choice!

    #1184373

    Mammele
    Participant

    Health: there are too many governmental parties involved to know anything conclusively. At least I can’t. Guatemala, Israel, Canada, and to a small extent the US – each with conflicting ideas and some extended families applying pressure. Many of these extended families are not frum, cohesive or loving (which is why the parents ended up with Helbrans in the first place).

    And hundreds of really difficult kids to find appropriate, preferably Yiddish speaking homes for, ideally not splitting siblings. That’s a tall order under the best of circumstances. The “rehab” these kids need is unbelievable.

    The first rule is always: do no harm. So even if you may be right in principle, it’s not simple at all. And if the kids can stay with their parents, that’s almost always optimal. Why should we spend so much energy on government bureaucracy to place the kids appropriately if we can perhaps find a way to deal with the parents first. The best way would be if we can get something like a restraining order for their corrupt leaders, so the parents will be more amenable to cooperate.

    I don’t know if that’s possible, so I’m going to leave it for the experts.

    #1184374

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mammele, on what legal basis do your imagine the religious leaders having a restraining order placed upon them in any country that professes freedom of religion? Even if you think they’re a cult, cults are legal.

    #1184375

    Mammele
    Participant

    Joseph: I was thinking along the lines of either arrest or agree to some sort of plea deal to that effect. But since my shoulders aren’t broad enough I’m just speculating. And of course nothing can happen unless there’s real proof against them.

    #1184376

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mammele, arrest for what? There’s no legal basis to arrest the leadership.

    #1184377

    Mammele
    Participant

    There actually is. IF there were members willing to testify against them.

    #1184378

    Joseph
    Participant

    Baloney.

    #1184379

    Health
    Participant

    Mammele – After your conversation with Joe, it leaves very little option! The only option I see, is that the respective governments’ take the kids away and the Frum communities volunteer to be Foster parents and/or for adoption!

    #1184380

    Mammele
    Participant

    So I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    I’m just wondering, at which point does mind, body and financial control become illegal? Simple phony calls can be deemed harassment, I’m sure this is a lot worse. Especially since there are kids involved.

    #1184381

    Joseph
    Participant

    When it is involuntary. As long as the adults consent to it for themselves and their children, it is legal.

    #1184382

    Mammele
    Participant

    Joseph: Adults can’t consent for their kids to be undernourished, just one example contrary to your statement. I know there’s no simple gauge, but to categorically deny the possibility of illegality is even more foolish.

    #1184383

    Mammele
    Participant

    Health: There’s no way only frum people will get custody. Too many BTs with non frum families involved. And I’d think they’d have the Israeli government on their side. The citizenship of many kids is also complicated.

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