Liability of persons who infect others with coronavirus

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  • April 12, 2020 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1848764
    Joseph
    Participant

    Is a person who inadvertently infects another with coronavirus or another infectious disease (influenza, etc.), bear any halachic responsibility for the victim’s illness or death, either in Din Torah or (more likely) Chayav B’Dinei Shamayim?

    April 12, 2020 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1848922
    catch yourself
    Participant

    I don’t know for sure, but I imagine it would depend on whether he exercised due diligence as per the guidance of medical and Halachic authorities.

    April 12, 2020 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1849002
    Joseph
    Participant

    On what halachic basis can you assert that a person would be completely patur both B’Dinei Adam and B’Dinei Shamayim if he infected other people either a) before the world was aware there was a pandemic (so he took no precautions) or b) despite having taken the recommended precautions (which early in the pandemic proved to be insufficient)? Or during a general annual seasonal flu when there aren’t significant precautions recommended.

    And how is liability B’Dinei Shamayim different regarding cases of illness versus cases r”l of fatality.

    April 12, 2020 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1849026
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, what about dinei degarmi where it is indirect harm?

    April 12, 2020 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1849030
    Joseph
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, garmi or grama?

    And does that apply both to Dinei Adam and Dinei Shamayim?

    April 12, 2020 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1849035
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Not groma but garmi in SA CHM 386. The question is a knas miderabonon or din min haTorah where you create personal harm with an excuse. Do we say odom muad loalom? I don’t think this is dinei shomayim. Once
    he infected the other, he will die.

    April 12, 2020 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1849037
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    I guess you are really bored with shelter in place and your trying to occupy yourself

    April 13, 2020 7:09 am at 7:09 am #1849121
    Joseph
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, why don’t you think there’s any issue of dinei shamayim applicable in such cases?

    I’m also unsure what point you’re making about the person dying.

    April 13, 2020 7:11 am at 7:11 am #1849122
    Abba_S
    Participant

    This is an interesting question as this is a case of indirect damage in which case the person causing the infection would not usually be liable. Also there are no witnesses that can testify when and how the infection occurred. Another question is was the victim wearing protection i.e. was he wearing a mask and gloves. Just like someone going out in the middle of the winter without a coat and catches a cold. Also since over 80% of the people infected do not require hospitalization. Did the person causing the infection cause the hospitalization or was it the weakened state of the victim that caused it. I am not sure how you can find someone liable in this case.

    April 13, 2020 11:35 am at 11:35 am #1849192
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, I don’t know what you mean by dinei shomayim, judgement from heaven or is he is not responsible because the harm was caused by heaven and not by him on which a I said I don’t think so. Judgement from heaven we don’t know. I don’t think dinei the garmi where there is an argument if it is the same as groma there
    is punishement by shomayim.

    April 13, 2020 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1849206
    Joseph
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, I mean judgement from heaven of the person who infected others. The Gemorah talks about Chayav B’Dinei Shamayim.

    Also we sometimes do know that certain activities result in punishment from heaven (i.e. kores) for doing certain given actions or, for example, when someone kills someone negligently or without any evidence, where Beis Din cannot act upon it.

    April 13, 2020 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1849221
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, look up the source in CM 386,3 the argument between the Mechaber and RMA about the difference between garmi and groma and the Sefer Kesef Nivchar on the Sugya.
    see https://hebrewbooks.org/32801 klal 43

    April 13, 2020 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1849227
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joseph, also see from the Ramban https://hebrewbooks.org/55557

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