Lift & Cut Shavers

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  • #587833

    Joe Schmo
    Member

    Does anyone know what the story with “lift and cut shavers” are? Is there a way to get that option removed? And if you can, does anyone know if the shaver still works well?

    Thanks for the help.

    #623615

    Shadow
    Member

    If you take out the blades form your shaver, remember how you too kit out so you can put them back, you will see that under each blade, going around in the circle, there is a second thin piece of metal. this second piece is the lift and cut. You can remove that extra piece with a small pliers and/or tweezer. be very careful because they are very sharp, more so if they have never been used.

    #623617

    lechaim
    Member

    About 10 years ago when i had the shailoh I was told to run a piece of metal accross each blade thereby dulling it and making it not have a problem lehalacha. Some of my friends and I did it and the shaver worked quite well for a good few years. One firm rub across the blade with a key will do the trick.

    #623618

    Jersey Jew
    Participant

    Before you do that, ask a shayla from your rov if it is even necessary.

    #623619

    Don’t buy Norelco at all.Try Remington and other cheaper brands.

    #623620

    chaimski
    Member

    I spoke to Harav Moishe Heineman a few years ago about this topic…

    Brauns are in general OK(Kosher)

    Norelco/Philips you need to ask a shaila (each model varies)

    #623621

    besalel
    Participant

    From my understanding this “lift and cut” business is just a marketing ploy and that the “life and cut” shavers do not operate any differently nor do they cut any closer than any rotary based shavers. I have seen and felt rotarty shaves versus foil shaves and found that they both cut above skin-level. There are certain methods of shaving which should be avoided. for example, pulling the skin back tightly and pressing the shaver against your skin (against the grain) can get you in trouble halachaclly whether you use a foil or any rotary. in other words, it doesnt matter what shaver you use, what matters if the method you use to shave. I know the poskim have gone both ways about the lift and cut but has there ever been a scientific evaluation of the product?

    #623622

    lechaim
    Member

    What besalel wrote is basically the reason why any sharp blade under the screen is a problem. Thats why dulling it a little was necessary.

    #623623

    papper
    Member

    Go to Koshershaver.com which has a good discussion of the shaver issue.

    #623625

    koton
    Member

    Have a look at http://www.koshershaver.info/ it is a different site to the one given by papper and is well worth reading.

    #623626

    koton
    Member

    He [Rav Aharon Kotler] [may one use a shaving machine] [the prohibition]

    #623627

    koton
    Member

    Will You Heed the Call of the Gedolim?

    AN URGENT PROCLAMATION from the Leading Sages of our generation

    THE SEVERE BREACH OF HALACHA INVOLVED IN THE USE OF SHAVING MACHINES is well known to all. Their use was prohibited by our Rabbis, the gedolim of the [previous] generation, including the Chafetz Chayim and the Chazon Ish. Moreover, this [prohibition applied] even to the shavers of many years ago [when the shavers were far more primitive and did not cut hair as close to the skin as modern shavers]. Today, the shavers have been enhanced [and cut much closer to the skin] and thus the halachic issues involved are far more severe. This was the halachic ruling of also our great teacher, [the Steipler Gaon, R. Yaakov Yisrael Kanievsky] [as a razor], as is evident from Makkos 21a and Rambam, Hilchos Avodas Kochavim, ch. 12.

    IT IS THUS OBVIOUSLY THE RESPONSIBILITY OF ALL THE ROSHEI YESHIVOS [heads of the yeshivos] to confront this issue and not allow shavers that leave the face smooth to be brought in [to the yeshivos]. This prohibition applies both to the one who shaves and the one who is shaven.

    IT IS A GREAT MITZVAH TO STUDY THE SEFER TIFERES ADAM, authored by the Chafetz Chayim, zatzal, that focuses on strengthening the observance of this prohibition and explains the reward received in both this world and the next for its practice.

    [signed by:]

    [wrote about this halachic principle] and it was thus obvious to him that [shaving machines]
    R. Yosef Shalom Eliashiv

    R. Aharon Yehuda Leib Shteinman. R. Shmuel HaLevi Wosner. R. Michal Yehudah Lefkovitz. R. Nissim Karelitz. R. Chayim Kanievsky.

    #623628

    GingerKale
    Participant

    Thanks you, koton, for paskening that we are not allowed to shave. Now what about all the Rabbanim that didn’t assur shaving? Are they ignorant?

    #623629

    mariner
    Member

    Right-on gingerkale. i have seen plenty of pictures of bochurim from all the yeshivos of Europe: telz, kelm, kamenitz, slobodka, novordhok, etc. ALL the bochurim were clean shaven, and they used a chemical that burned the hear all the way, including the root, so there is no way a lift anc cut shaver that just cuts the hair, and not the root is worse. it is imposible svorah to say such a thing. yes, the chofetz chaim and the chozon ish may have assured it, but , and i dont mean this in a chutpadihk way, they were only 2. many, many, many rabbonim, of which included many gedolim, did allow such shavers, including rav moshe! i do find it funny how some feinsteins, and i am not sure if it is the roshei yeshiva or other grandchildren, who claim rav moshe would never hold of the shavers (lift and cut) today. unless someone can speak to the dead [hey, you never know :-)], that can in no way hold any halachic authority. le’maaseh, teh jewish thing to do is not ask stupid sheilos on random message boards, and get answers from no faced answerers. teh thing is to get up , find a rov who has smicha, (not a rosh yeshiva, since not all actually have smicha, unless of course yours does) and ask him. and also ask him why yes or no.

    my rov told me that checking lift and cut gets looked at as any other rotary blade, check against arm hair, and if it is a razor, then its no good, if its not, then kosher. the fact that lift and cut is a scissor that is too good, made no sense to him, and he is the talmid muvhik of one of the gedolim of yesteryear. (and has smicha from rav shlomo zalmen aurbach)

    #623630

    mariner
    Member

    Right-on gingerkale. i have seen plenty of pictures of bochurim from all the yeshivos of Europe: telz, kelm, kamenitz, slobodka, novordhok, etc. ALL the bochurim were clean shaven, and they used a chemical that burned the hear all the way, including the root, so there is no way a lift anc cut shaver that just cuts the hair, and not the root is worse. it is imposible svorah to say such a thing. yes, the chofetz chaim and the chozon ish may have assured it, but , and i dont mean this in a chutpadihk way, they were only 2. many, many, many rabbonim, of which included many gedolim, did allow such shavers, including rav moshe! i do find it funny how some feinsteins, and i am not sure if it is the roshei yeshiva or other grandchildren, who claim rav moshe would never hold of the shavers (lift and cut) today. unless someone can speak to the dead [hey, you never know :-)], that can in no way hold any halachic authority. le’maaseh, teh jewish thing to do is not ask stupid sheilos on random message boards, and get answers from no faced answerers. teh thing is to get up , find a rov who has smicha, (not a rosh yeshiva, since not all actually have smicha, unless of course yours does) and ask him. and also ask him why yes or no.

    my rov told me that checking lift and cut gets looked at as any other rotary blade, check against arm hair, and if it is a razor, then its no good, if its not, then kosher. the fact that lift and cut is a scissor that is too good, made no sense to him, and he is the talmid muvhik of one of the gedolim of yesteryear. (and has smicha from rav shlomo zalmen aurbach)

    #623631

    koton
    Member

    GingerKale,

    I never met a posek who allowed shaving. You think the chofetz chayim wrote seforim for fun?

    If you accept his Mishna Beruro, you must accept his Kuntres Tiferes Odom, unless it is like the reform / mesorti movement who choose which halochos to keep and which to trash.

    By the way did I mention the Chazon Ish:

    [1] just like a razor[2] and did not permit selling a shaving machine even to a Jew who shaves with a razor in order to save him from the prohibition of using a razor[3] [chemical][4].

    He wrote:[5] [removal of the beard with] depilatory cream… I find this matter very painful…I am accustomed to this being prohibited since the earlier generations, and [the prohibition] was very severe…[Jews] have learned it from the non-Jews during their exile…Although this sickness has spread even among the bnei Torah, the issue has not changed as a result of this, and therefore my soul boils [with rage]
    [6]

    sources cited below in the following footnotes (2-3).

    colleague/disciple, Rav Shmuel HaLevi Vosner shlita, in his Teshuvos Shevet HaLevi

    p. 56) and numerous other sources cited in Hadras Ponim Zokon (pp. 349-350).

    see also Rav Chayim Kanievsky shlita in his sefer Orchos Yosher (p. 20), where he

    not permit selling one even to a Jew who shaves with a razor in order to save him

    from the prohibition of using a razor, but instructed [the inquirer) to sell it to a

    4 Rav Chayim Kanievsky shlita in his sefer Orchos Yosher (ibid.).

    Orchos Yosher (ibid.).

    #623632

    koton
    Member

    Regarding the Cutting and Growth of the Beard

    by HaGaon Rabbi Chayim Kanievsky, shlita

    (Son of the Steipler Gaon)

    excerpted from his sefer Orchos Yosher (p.19)

    [With this our

    having this [a beard]
    is only in recent generations that some have started to treat this irreverently, having learned this from the non-Jews.

    [non-Jewish]
    quoted by the Chofetz Chayim in his Sefer Hamitzvos Hakotzer (Prohibitions 177).

    Our teacher the Chazon Ish was highly displeased with this practice. His displeasure was not only with

    permit selling one even to a Jew who shaves with a razor in order to save him from the prohibition of using a razor, but

    instructed [the inquirer] to sell it to a non-Jew.

    My father and teacher [Rabbi Yaakov Yisroel Kanievsky, the Steipler Gaon], of blessed memory, was also

    very strict about this, saying it is very likely that [a shaving machine] is considered literally a razor, so that

    one transgresses five prohibitions for using it.

    electric shaver, refer to Likkutei Halochos on tractate Makkos by the Chofetz Chayim, p.14b in Ein Mishpot there, where

    he writes that it is forbidden and that one should not be lenient in this. It is also known that the Chazon Ish, of blessed

    [In addition, the Chazon Ish] was highly displeased even with those who

    [chemical].

    care not to cut the beard even with scissors, for the Kabbalists write that thereby one uproots the channels of [the flow of]

    Kedusha from Above. Our fathers and ancestors in our land were accustomed to observing this strictly. Especially today

    when many of the lawless elements of our nation have the practice of shaving with a razor, it is a great Mitzva for the

    whole Jewish people to reinforce this observance and not to trim the beard even with scissors, thereby showing everyone

    that the commandments the Torah has given us to distinguish the Jewish man [from the non-Jew] are precious to us and

    [depilatory cream]
    [poison] [lifegiving potion] either, and I find this matter very painful,

    for it is against the [Jewish] quality of modesty and is not the Jewish style of dress but [Jews] have learned it from the non-

    of those who remove their beards [with scissors] similar to [the effect of] a razor [close cutting], for I am accustomed to

    this being prohibited since the previous generations, and [the prohibition]

    this sickness has spread even among Torah scholars, may they be well, the issue has not changed as a result of this, and

    #623633

    koton
    Member

    HALACHIC RULING ~ Rabbi Yosef Sholom Elyashiv ~ ABOUT SHAVING THE BEARD

    by the Gaon, Yerushalayim

    The Chofetz Chaim wrote (Likkutei Halachos, end of Makkos)

    that recently a machine had been introduced for shaving the

    hair, and, [using it for shaving the beard] is, in his opinion,

    close to [transgressing] a prohibition of the Torah itself.

    In our opinion, if this was the case in his

    time, when [the machine] was not so advanced and even the

    lowest setting did not give a very close shave, how much more

    so in our time when the machine works by electricity [giving a

    much closer shave], it is considered destroying the

    hair in the manner itself…

    #623634

    koton
    Member

    When the disease of cutting the beard spread among students of

    the [Litvishe] Yeshivos, the well-known Gaon, Rabbi Eliezer Gordon

    [Rov and Rosh Yeshiva of Telz], of blessed memory, adopted the

    most stringent measures [to stop it].

    When he saw that they persisted in their defiance, he mobilized

    [Rov of Pinsk-Karlin], the venerable Rabbi Eliyahu Chaim Meisel

    [Rov of Lodz, Poland], and the mighty Gaonim Rabbi Chaim HaLevi

    [Soloveitchik, Rov of Brisk], and Rabbi Chaim Ozer [Grodzenski,

    Rov of Vilna]
    He demanded that they place a prohibition on Rabbonim

    against granting them [students who cut their beards] Rabbinic

    ordination [Semicha], on Shochtim against teaching them the skill

    of ritual slaughtering [Shechita], and on Jewish communities against

    employing them in any religious position.

    Kovetz Yagdil Torah 7:5

    #623635

    koton
    Member

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    #623636

    there are those who allow shaving of the beard. however, to each their own.

    also, my rebbe heard from Rav Kamenetsky (I think) that each shaver must be tested by a competent halachic authority prior to using them … that includes remmington

    #623637

    koton
    Member

    Sweib91, it is difficult to understand as Rav Kamenetsky wrote as follows in Emes l’yacov Yoreh Deah 181

    …Regarding [the prohibition of using] machines for shaving [the beard], this

    is not just a Chumra [Halachic strictness] but a substantive [Halachic] issue,

    and residents of Bnei Brak are certainly obligated to follow the ruling of the

    local Halachic authorities (Poskim) [who prohibit using shavers].

    In fact, I do not know whether the great Torah authorities (Gedolim) of

    America [ever] explicitly permitted them; it is possible that they kept silent

    because no one asked them [their opinion], and they avoided the issue,

    knowing that their words would not be heeded.

    As for [any leniency] that has become accepted in past generations, it is

    a fact that over time there have been many improvements in the machines,

    and it is possible that, as a result of these improvements, shaving with them

    has become prohibited [even according to the reasoning offered for that

    leniency].Accordingly, in this case, it is difficult to rely on [any] tradition [to

    be lenient]…*

    * Indeed, this is how [Rabbonim] should rule, that it is not just Halachic

    strictness, and if a young man wishes to be scrupulous not to use any shaving

    machine, his parents should not object to this and say that [their son] is just

    trying to find [superfluous] Halachic stringencies.

    #623638

    koton
    Member

    A BURNING

    QUESTION

    Thousands of righteous women have removed (and even burned) their very expensive Sheitels (containing hair from Hindu women)* (even though it is to the detriment of their appearance)due to a halachic ruling of the great gaon and posek Rav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv, shlita

    Yet the very same Rav Elyashiv, shlita also ruled that all electric shavers which men use to remove their beards definitely have the same halachic status as a razor and their use involves violation of severe Biblical prohibitions on a daily basis**

    If so —

    #623639

    mariner
    Member

    sweib, you are right.

    koton – i have heard that story about rav eliezr gordon beofre, and from what i have heard, he was not successful in his pushing his ruling. (many, many roshei yeshivos disagreed, including brisk!)

    stories are just that, stories told by people with an agenda. unless you have found this story in a sefer that rov gordon wrote, then its just a story with absolutely no basis in fact. as for the three rulings of the gedolim of Eretz Yisroel, if you ever play sports, or let your kids play sports, you are going against their rulings, and you must stop immediately, since if you pick and choose, you’re mesorati (your words not mine).

    now for the actual history of shaving told to me by teh agudas yisroel archiver:

    it seems that in lita that the governemnt in the late 1800’s ruled that people must have clean faces (i think rabbi’s had exceptions). rabbonim had decided at that time that this was a sign from hashem that we no longer have the right to keep our beards, that this was one more thing hashem was taking away from us in golus.

    one can argue that now he has given it back, etc, but you then will prob have to believe that hashem gave us eretz yisroel back as well, and we all know the chofetz chaim was aginst the state of israel [you hear that agudas yisroel, you mesorati movement organization of pick and choosers, how dare you join the israeli government ;-)]

    lemaaseh, koton, you are a hothead that needs to cut back on your rhetoric. yes, me and you cannot pick and choose who to hold like, but my rov and your rov CAN and MUST. there is no black and whte in halacha, there are shades of gray! otherwise we would all be holding the same thing, since almost all rabbonim are bassically of 2 schools, those stemming from Volozhin, and those stemming from the Besht. the only way that there could be any machlokes in any shailo today would be over the fact that rabbonim pick and choose how to look at shailos, and look at previous seforim to pasken. most people hold like rav moshe for alot of things, yet chalev stam still to this day is not eaten by most of the yeshiva world. people use timers on shabbos, especially for their air conditioners, when rav moshe was vehemently opposed.

    basically, koton, ill assume that you mean good, but cut the rhetoric, please, bec it can be sent right back at you, and your words may end up painting you in a very bad light.

    #623640

    GingerKale
    Participant

    Koton – you’ve proved your point, though avoided my question. It’s clear that you feel shaving is assur – but what about all the Rabbanim who don’t hold like that?

    #623641

    sweib91,

    if you’re talking about Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky Shlita, you’re right. Many years ago, he personally tested my shaver on his arm to see how it cuts and said I can use it.

    #623642

    koton
    Member

    GingerKale-are there any poskim who hold it is ok to shave?

    Another example from

    Rav and Rosh Yeshiva of SLABODKA

    …Every Jew should think about this and have pity on his children only when they walk in the paths of Hashem, when they are similar in their appearance to their parents, keeping Shabbos and . But not to those who are not at all similar in their appearance to the Jewish people, for they have become distant and have garbed themselves in a different style, desecrating Shabbos and … Their appearance is not similar to the Jewish people, for they have removed from themselves the (Divine image).

    Levush Mordechai, Bava Kamma p.7

    *

    [Epstein, Rosh Yeshiva of Slabodka-Chevron]
    Shaalos Uteshuvos P’as Sod’cha, section 101

    #623643

    koton
    Member

    By the way, why would anyone want to shave?

    #623644

    Thinking
    Member

    marine,

    If there are only two groups, and one stemming from volozhin, it is yadua that the netziv was pro a state in israel, I guess you must be chassidish

    #623645

    koton
    Member

    Why is Mama Rochel Crying?!

    Originally, when our Matriarch Rochel visited her children in exile, she saw them adorned with the Tzelem Elokim [image of G-d — the beard] [Jewish likeness, which enables us to be recognized as Jews].

    She did not fear, because she knew that there was hope for their redemption.

    [since many have] cut off their beards….

    Kehilas Yaakov, Rabbi Shlomo Kluger, Aseres Yemei Teshuva, pp. 306-607.

    #623646

    koton
    Member

    mariner

    I don’t pick and choose nor do I play sport, unfortunatly I am disabled, therefore I spend most of the day (when I am well enough) learning.

    #623648

    oh and koton … don’t bring in the shaitel situation … it was a psak that got blown totaly out of proportion to who and what it was directed at and for

    #623650

    koton
    Member

    I know, the two rabbonm who went to india did not even go into the temple to see what was done with the hair, they were not allowed in. All the information given by them and used to pasken was either told to them by an indian priest (good reliable aidus, or made up. So it was a kal v’chomer, if the woman got rid of their shaitles for no reason the men should leave thier beards alone for many very good reasons.

    #623651

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Koton, I am very sorry to hear about your disability. May the RBSH send you a refuah shleima bkorov, refuas hanefes and refuas haguf, and may you regain your strength, and be oveid hashem bsimcha.

    Nevertheless, Rav Blumenkrantz, who is not known for being a maikil, in his Pesach book of 2007 lists some of the kosher shavers.

    Just one comment. For a few years I had used the Remington 850, and it worked well. I thought it was lost, so I looked in the book and bought a Remington 950. It was terrible. Cuts very poorly and hurts face very badly. It weighs much less than the 850, and probably spins much slower. I can’t stand when companies try to save money and degrade the product. They apparently used a much cheaper motor. Yet they give it a higher number, 950, making you think you are getting an upgraded model. Buyer beware.

    #623652

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Koton, I heard from some very prominent psokim that shaving is ok. I discussed with R’ Reisman shlita exactly which shaver is ok when I needed to buy one, and he recommended a model to me.

    #623653

    jphone
    Member

    Koton:

    Thank you for issueing a psak in this matter. I am certain the oilam is out burning their shavers right now.

    WHY someone might shave? Here is one very valid reason. Not everyone is zoche to sit and learn all day. Some people have to go out and earn a parnassa. In the pursuit of parnassa it is required to be clean shaven, OR, at the very least, sport a neatly trimmed beard. Long overgrown beards that have not been trimmed are a detriment to the earning of a parnassa.

    Since you have no problems issuing a psak for all cyberspace, would you care to rule on the permissibility, or lack thereof, of trimming ones beard?If it is allowed, what instruments are allowed?

    #623654

    08701lakewood
    Participant

    goto http://www.koshershaver.org/ for a full discussion on this

    #623655

    koton
    Member

    Jphone,

    My father was in business for many years and his best gimmick was his large beard. Customers would ring up and ask for the guy with the long beard. No one forgot him once they met him.

    #623656

    jphone
    Member

    Well, good for your father. Since nobody is actively looking to interview and hire “the guy with the long beard”, legitimate histadlus requires a neat appearance.

    #623657

    koton
    Member

    jphone:

    He was both interviewed & hired by a goyshe company. They respected his being straight & honest with them, upfront with early Friday, erev yom tov, etc.

    #623658

    PM
    Member

    When the Chofetz Chaim wrote in Likutei Halachos that the “shaving machine” is absolutely forbidden he was referring to the safety razor. The electric shaver was first invented nearly 20 years after the sefer was printed.

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