May 24, 2009 11:33 am at 11:33 am #589833
Is there an accepted way to handle a number of offers that come within a short period?
You get redt a shidduch, but then it turns out they’re actually working through a list.
Eventually you have a list of your own of people you’ve checked out, said yes to and haven’t heard back from.May 24, 2009 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #651955
My assumption is you are a parent of a girl. If this is really getting to be too much to handle, you may want to tell some of the shadchanim, like the ones who seem to have shvacher offers, or who never come through, that you prefer to give them all your daughter’s references and please don’t call till you get a yes from the boy’s side, and that you guarantee, bli neder to get back with a reply within 24 hours.
What’s happening now is, the boys have so many names, and yeah, I have rachmanus on their mothers too, that if they can get yeses from girls first, then they can eliminate all the other names and work through these. Problem is, it’s very demoralizing for the girls. For this daughter, I’m not quite in the system as she wants a working boy, and we seem to be able to get away with insisting on a yes from the boy first.
I don’t know the source and exact quote but chazal say that it’s the derech of the world for the boy to go after the girl, which my father shlita(a talmid chacham and ben Torah) always understood as the boy should travel to meet the girl, the boy should be pursuing the girl, so the boy should do the first checking.
Hatzlacha!May 24, 2009 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #651956
That’s a tough one. I have a different view on this subject because of something a friend of mine experienced with her son. He had a number of shidduchim redt to him (he’s married now, so it’s not a loss), and there was a girl his mother especially wanted him to meet. But she was nbeing redt to another boy, who had not said yes at that point and she was waiting to hear from the shadchan that the family was maskim. (She did not hear back from him for over a month). The girl would not move forward on another shidduch, even though she was not getting a call back on the first boy (and that is where many people and I differ in our feelings about this process – I would not wait to hear from that first boy if another shidduch was presented who was ready to go out). Consequently, the boy was redt another shidduch, he went out with her, and that is the girl he married. So obviously she was his basherte, and B”H everything worked out for him. But that first girl was kicking herself, because a) the boy she was waiting to hear from ultimately did not accept to meet her and b) she heard what a great guy my friend’s son is, and lost out on the opportunity to meet him.
I wish I knew a solution for this problem. Ultimately we all know Hashem fiers the world, and it is His ratzon that prevails, but who knows what might have happened had the girl been willing to hear about the shidduch that “got away.” She is unfortunately not married yet, and this happened two years ago.
I still believe that one should at least consider every shidduch that is presented and not refuse to hear about it (As happens often), just because it is one on a longer list. JMO.May 24, 2009 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #651957
Oomis, I think that with the new rules, if a girl says yes and another shidduch comes her way she should ask a shaila, as it is not so likely that she’ll get a yes from the boy.May 24, 2009 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #651958
I am curious, Tzippi, as to why you feel this is an inyan requiring the asking of a shailah? I am not trying to be flip in my response, I am genuinely mystified as to what halachic issue is being compromised. It would enlighten me greatly if I could understand this better. Is it that there is an idea of “gneivas daas” involved, i.e. that the first family believes themselves to be the one and only shidduch being redt? If so, perhaps the solution to that is for everyone across the board to accept the idea that the early bird gets the worm (excuse the expression),a nd they should not be sitting on an answer as to whether or not they will accept the shidduch. Like everything else in life, the laws of supply and demand are very influential. If a boy’s mother knew he might lose out on a shidduch because she is not responding promptly, and that the girl has other shidduchim in the offing, maybe that would encourage the boy’s side to get back to the shadchan more quickly.
I am honest to say that I am not in the type of chevra that normally will conduct their shidduch pursuits in this particular derech, but the experience of my friend whom I mentioned, as well as acquaintances who have been discussing the whole “shidduch crisis” issue, leads me to conclude that there are some avoidable problems, if people would consider the possibility of revamping one or two aspects of the system. I know it works well for many, but for those for whom it does not work, what are they supposed to do?May 24, 2009 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #651960
If the boy is in Yeshiva, it is correctly expected for the girl to travel to him (if from another town) so he should minimize the bitul Torah. If she comes to his town, he can be in Yeshiva during the dating process without losing time from Torah.May 24, 2009 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #651961
You know Oomis, I was thinking of a similar but not quite situation, where both sides had said yes, knew that it would be two weeks till they could meet and in the interim, a shidduch that someone had been working on for a while that we were very excited about finally come through with a yes. We were told that while this exciting shidduch was definitely more promising they couldn’t go out till she met the boy both had committed to.
You’re right, under these circumstances I don’t think a shaila is necessary, and the shadchan should be told a yes with the understanding that a yes from the boy must be forthcoming.May 24, 2009 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #651962
Actually, Tzippi, I’m the mother of the boy. Here (EY) the accepted thing is to redt the shidduch to the boy first. Personally, I would prefer the other way round, but
someone mentioned something about the girl getting to do the refusing.
The situation you mentioned in your last post is the scenario I was thinking of.
Surely in a system where people say yes, then go on to checking into other offers, this may well happen. But like in Oomis’ example, if you wait for each offer to pan out, you’re going to waste a lot of time. I’m trying to imagine how these poor guys
manage to concentrate on their learning when all this is going on. In our case, our son is very involved as a lot of the offers come through his friends. The situation is created because a shidduch is suggested to him with minimal details, if he expresses interest they go to the girl, get her initial approval and further details, references etc., without regard to how many offers she currently has on the perek, as long as she is not actually going out with someone (at the moment they enquire:-) she’s considered “free”May 26, 2009 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #651963
I know someone who went out with two different girls this past Sunday.
After the first date (morning date), he was redt another one said yes and went out that night.
Is there anything wrong with that?May 26, 2009 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #651964
“Is there anything wrong with that?”
Asking the question in this way will likely stir up a hornet’s nest (Mod edit: do you mean a Dumbledore nest?).
Whether or not this is wrong is extremely subjective.
Certainly it is not the ideal way to date
But different situations could justify multi-dating
Each person should consider his own situation and ask about it
Those who are affected by it have the right to protest
how they have been treated to the sahdchan
A blanket ruling on this does not make sense though.
– my attempt at feivelesqueMay 26, 2009 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #651965
Just Smile – I see plenty wrong with this. Shidduchim should not be treated like a factory conveyor belt or speed dating. If you want to go down that route then that’s plain dating.
A shidduch should involve some time making enquiries etc and then meeting one person at a time with the view that maybe this is the beshert. How can you do that if you’ve got another date lined up the same day or next day come to it.May 26, 2009 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #651966
just smile: If he rejected (at least in his mind) the first date already, I don’t see any issue. If not, then it was certainly wrong.
btw, how did he manage to have a shidduch redt to him and go out with her a couple hours later? That is very unusal with chareidim.May 26, 2009 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #651967
Dear Just Smile
Yes, there is something VERY wrong with “double dating.” Unless the first girl he went out with was totally not for him, and he realized right away that it was a waste of time to pursue it any further, it should not be done.
Can you explain how in the world the boy will not compare the two girls to each other??
When a boy goes out on a date, he should be concentrating on “ideals” and how he wants to lead his married life. If the girl is of the same mindset as him, than you “go for it” (or go further depeding on where the dating process is holding).May 26, 2009 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #651968
Nobody – How is that plain dating – it was still with a Shadchan – the people didn’t know each other
chaverim – great question
I spoke to him. What happened was he traveled to his home town to go out with a girl twice over the weekend. Date 1 didn’t go anywhere but he said he would give it another shot since he was in town until Sunday night anyways. He went out again on Sunday. His mother was a t a simcha on Sunday afternoon and met someone who asked when is the next time he would be in town because she had a girl she wanted to redt. She had already spoken to the girl about it and the families knew of each other and the girl had already said yes. The boys mother said he’s actually in town on a date but I don’t think it’s going anywhere so if he says no I could ask him to change his flight to Monday. And that’s exactly what happened.May 26, 2009 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #651969
I personally don’t think there is anything wrong dating multiple people on the first few dates. Until there is some form of committment, there is no need to be exclusive…
But, I believe in general dating and don’t care much for the shidduch system so…May 26, 2009 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #651970
Just smile – I used the phrase plain dating because it is not in the spirit of a shidduch.May 26, 2009 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #651971
Maybe we should put “double dating” in quotes.
Used to be boys would do it all the time, due to transportation hassles (at least my mother said my father did 50+ years ago). I think it’s a bit easier now, and worth it to wait, even if the opportunity seems so bashert. It complicates things too much.May 26, 2009 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #651972
so this boy should have said no?
I thought it was a bit weird, but after thinking for a bit – I couldn’t put my finger on anything wrong with it.
He had already turned the page on the last one – and was now offered this one.
Is the problem that it was the same day? Should he have waited a day or two before?May 26, 2009 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #651973
Pass it along to a friend. Let him/her look into it if you feel it is appropriate for them. No need to hoard all the names (poor choice of words, but dont want to bother coming up with another).May 26, 2009 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #651974
an open bookParticipant
squeak: nice job there 🙂May 27, 2009 1:16 am at 1:16 am #651975
If he was absolutely sure the last girl was a no, fine. But as Rabbi Braun of Monsey points out, it’s fine to take time to think about things (not too long, don’t overthink, but don’t rush either).May 27, 2009 1:34 am at 1:34 am #651976
From my understanding of it – he didn’t really want to go out the second time – he was doing it to give her another chance.
After the second date he was positive it wasn’t going anywhere.May 27, 2009 3:52 am at 3:52 am #651977
I agree this is a very subjective issue. Going out with more than one person at a time works very well for some people (it certainly did for me, as I wasted no time, and in the case of an older single person, time is even more of the essence). But it is detrimental to others. There is no one right or wrong in my opinion. It is wrong if it is wrong for YOU, but not if it is right for someone else. Some people bedavka NEED to be able to compare two dates as potential shidduchim. I don’t say they should see a different person every day of the week, but I don’t agree that there is something innately worng with dating two people at the same time. It does not necessarily confuse everyone, as was asserted, and in fact can often truly bring into focus what the person likes better about one shidduch versus the other. I am not recommending it as a blanket statement, but neither do I think that it is so glatt to say it’s a bad thing, either.May 27, 2009 7:58 am at 7:58 am #651978
Oomis I think it is offensive to date two people at the same time. You are not comparing the quality of potatos – people are potential partners for life. When a person dates one person they can truly concentrate on the qualities. How on earth can you do that when dating in multiples.
How do you think the person who is turned down feels when he/she finds out they have been doubled dated and compared to only to be turned down because the other person was a better comparisonMay 27, 2009 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #651979
Nobody, sometimes, you need to see someone else to realize what it is you like/don’t like about the other person. Chances are, you are comparing your dates whether you realize it or not. After all, you are thinking about the last person you rejected because of XYZ middah and trying to see if this person is better. This is in addition to seeing if you like the person and are compatible.
Its not a matter of rejecting a person because the other was better in comparison – its a matter of choosing the person that is right FOR YOU. When you are dating, you sort of have to be selfish and say “What is best for me? What do I want out of the person I am dating?” Granted, this is early on before emotions really come into play. But no one is talking about dating multiple people for long spans of time.May 27, 2009 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #651980
Is there anything wrong with that?
If I will ever find out that a boy that I was dating is dating another girl the same time as me i would dump him.This is because it is not right! How can you focus your attention and feelings on one girl when he is busy dealing with his feeling about a diffrent girl!Despite the fact that we have a shidduch crisis and there are “more girls the boys” I am not a piece of meat for sale.I am not a cow for sale.I personally feel it is an aveirah, and the boy who double dates will be over geneivas daas-I think he is intersted in me and he pretends to be, but he likes someone else at well!If you feel that boys should double date-which no good can come out of it other then agmas nefesh and heartache-then how about girls double dating? How would your son feel if I was dating him 6 diffrent boys at once? How would he feel?I feel double dating goes against everything we stand for as yiddin!We don’t date to date like the goyim do-we date for a purpose to get married and not to make peole go around in circles!Goyim double date and do all sorts of things thats why most of them are not married!We as yiddin do things diffrently!May 27, 2009 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #651981
Hate to break this to you BasYisroel2 but loads and loads of guys going out are on many more dates at the same time. I know that you feel this is disgusting- quite rightfully by the way but that’s just the way things are nowadaysMay 27, 2009 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #651982
BY2, my sister dating multiple guys at the same time…I think its not a problem as long as its early. If you are dating for a few weeks, then I think its a problem.
Also, non-Jews don’t have the physical restrictions we do. It makes it a lot easier to avoid marriage – doesnt really have to do with dating styles.May 27, 2009 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #651983
BasYisroel2 – while you may be right, what you are describing wasn’t exactly that case
he already finished dating the first girl and called it off – although he didn’t speak to the shadchan yet – and he got a call about a different girl for that nightMay 27, 2009 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #651984
noitallmr – Just because loads and loads of guys are doing it – it doesn’t make it right and it shpouldn’t be but it will continue if all guys have the same attitude as you – sorry.
BasYisroel2 – you are perfectly correct!
SJS – I am sorry but your reasonng is wrong. You date one person at a time with the intention that this is for me. If not, ok move on. But with the attitude of multiple dating for any length of time you get only more confused.
You can easily choose who is right or wrong by simply saying yes or no. If the person has potential then say yes and carry on dating. If not say no, call it a day and move on. But to compare by dating two people at the same time – no way. By the way this practice is almost unheard of by non American born peopleMay 27, 2009 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #651985
Nobody- which part of “I know that you feel this is disgusting- quite rightfully by the way” didn’t you understand???May 27, 2009 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #651986
Nobody, I disagree with you. Not everyone can date the same way. Some people need to compare to really see the difference. Some get confused. Its all a matter of who you are and what you need. Dating has to be done in a somewhat selfish manner (at least to start with).May 28, 2009 12:31 am at 12:31 am #651987
SJSinNYC- took the words out of my mouth (and onto my screen)…May 28, 2009 3:41 am at 3:41 am #651988
“Dating has to be done in a somewhat selfish manner (at least to start with). “
Surprisingly, this is a very good point. Being selfish is not always a negative concept. When dating, one really has to assess what he or she needs for him or her self. Building on a relationship in when two people who start out as self-oriented (nice word than selfish)individuals, learn together how to care for each other’s needs. When the other person’s needs are as choshuv to the girl or boy as their own needs, they are able to make the commitment necessary for a marital relationship.May 31, 2009 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #651989
Dating has to be done in a somewhat selfish manner (at least to start with)
So basically you use two people to see who you prefer and then dump one of them ‘cos the other is better.
Or, you date two people like both of them so you toss a coin>
I’m sorry but the idea of dating two people simultaenously is wrong, for whatever reason.May 31, 2009 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #651990
an open bookParticipant
i’m a little confused – how did we start talking about dating two people at once? the OP was about dating one person after another, it was just a very short time later. but nobody was considering two people at the same time.May 31, 2009 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #651991
this conversation evolved from earlier posts, read through themMay 31, 2009 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #651992
an open book: don’t get me wrong- were not talking about the boy sitting around the table with 2 girls- rather one night Rivka next night Rochel…Simple!May 31, 2009 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #651993
an open book: don’t get me wrong- were not talking about the boy sitting around the table with 2 girls- rather one night Rivka next night Rochel…Simple!
noitallmr: Wow, are you a humorist?May 31, 2009 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #651994
chaverim: noitallmr is indeed a humorist/comedian! & i’m the President of his fan club! 😉May 31, 2009 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #651995
If you are a bochur or parent of same then just point out that takkono d’Rabbeinu Gershom has expired and that there is a shidduch crisis which affects girls more than boys…(ducking LOL)!May 31, 2009 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #651996
Thanx Jax- I think you were one of my foremost fans!!!
And yeah Chaverim I am the official YW humourist/ comedian. You must be pretty new if you don’t remember me from the old times huh?June 1, 2009 8:54 am at 8:54 am #651997
Bear, so explain why the bochurim have to wait patiently while the girl works through her list and gets round to checking him out. Either the shidduch crisis is over there or it’s a load of hype:-)June 1, 2009 10:21 am at 10:21 am #651998
Ummm…my post was not exactly serious :)! On the other hand, what you describe probably points to inefficiencies in the system caused by those on both sides who are too focused on things such as tablecloth color.June 1, 2009 10:48 am at 10:48 am #651999
Wow you guys sure are up early???June 1, 2009 11:21 am at 11:21 am #652000
I realized, but I guess this whole business is getting to meJune 1, 2009 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #652001
Nobody, its not a matter of using people or flipping a coin. Its a matter of figuring out whats best for YOU. When you stop dating someone, it has to do with you deciding they aren’t quite right for YOU.
I know plenty of people who dated multiple people at the same time and it worked out fine. I also know plenty of people who dated, broke up and then re-dated (and got married). I think you are fooling yourself if you think people don’t compare dates, even if they took place in the past.
Dating has a large portion of learning about yourself in it. And sometimes, the way to learn about yourself is to reflect on how you interact with certain people.
I think if you are dating multiple people for a while (like a month) then that is wrong – you are asking people to invest too much emotionally. But the first few dates are more like interviews than anything else.
Did I ever date multiple people at once? No, but then again I married the only guy I ever dated. But it wasn’t a shidduch type system, so I am not sure that even counts.June 1, 2009 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #652002
SJS forgive me if I sound out of turn but if you were not married via a shidduch and married the only guy you ever dated then you cannot comment as you cannot imagine the emotions involved or the delicacy of the situation.
To date two people even for two days to use as a comparision is wrong. Your comment that the first few dates are more like an interview are also wrong. It has nothing to do with whether it worked out fine or not. Do you know the emotions felt by the person involved in double dating but was turned down after a comparison?
Some years back a child of ours went on a shidduch. Liked the person and wanted to meet again. After days of waiting and back and forth by the shadchan we were told the person had said no. We found out that they had double dated with our child who was mortified, humiliated and could not understand why they were being used and what was wrong with them and what was so much better with the other person. This child is now long married with their own family but still remembers this event. I therefore feel I can comment on this subject.
Double dating is wrong and the fact it carries on every day does not make it right.June 1, 2009 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #652003
Nobody, I have close personal involvement with a few people who double dated and were on both sides of the coin.
While I understand the pain your child went through, rejection is a normal part of the shidduch process. Its a normal part of ANY dating process. There is always someone “better” out there and its just a matter of finding the right person for you. I’m trying to figure out a way to verbalize my thoughts well and I am having trouble at the moment. But your child should have understood that she was being rejected because the guy felt the match was not 100% compatible, whether or not he was dating anyone else. Double daters don’t sit there with a list and say “OK date with person A had these positives, person B had these positives. Lets compare the two and figure out which one I should dump.” Once there is some sort of committment (I think more than a few dates), then double dating is really cheating.
A close friend of mine broke up with a guy after dating for a while and dated up a storm for about two weeks (a lot of first dates and thats it). After those two weeks she realized what she had given up and called to see if the guy was willing to start up again. He was and they are happily married now. She needed a brief time to compare what her feelings/thoughts were before being able to move on. Does everyone need it? No, but some people do.June 1, 2009 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #652004
My child was upset not because of the rejection, as you say that’s all part of the process but because they were used. Double daters do indeed sit there and see which offer is the better and then drop one and date the other.
This is my last post on the subject. Date one person at a time. What’s the big deal so you wait a day or two for the next one. I think people’s feelings are more important than double dating, comparing or whatever you want to call it. Life’s not that short that a shidduch cannot wait one extra day.
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