January 8, 2009 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #589090
The internet does what it’s supposed to. Which is to disseminate information and knowledge to the masses. Yes there are negative (many negative) things to be seen and read. However it should be treated like anything else in this world.
We go to swim in pools, with seperate hours. Our children watch videos, made by frum companies. We walk in the street, and keep our eyes down. We shop in national stores, and pick out the tznius clothes. I can go on and on citing examples of how Jews have positively adapted their lives to their surroundings. This is life on our planet, and this is what is expected of us. Halacha says to go out of your town to commit an aveirah, it doesn’t say to go out of town to avoid commiting an aveirah.January 8, 2009 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #630364
“The internet does what it’s supposed to. Which is to disseminate information and knowledge to the masses.”
Who decided that that is what it’s supposed to do.
“What’s your point”
I would use a different nusach. What’s your agenda?January 8, 2009 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #630365
notpashut: this IS pashut! There is no specific agenda at hand. This is just a very controversial, open, broad topic where almost everyone has an opinion… so let them be heard! let’s hear yours- i have a feeling I’ll agree with your viewJanuary 8, 2009 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #630366
in other words, gawker, like anything else, it can be used for the good or for the bad, and we have to be careful and use it in a safe and proper way, i think that is basically your point, yes.
i find that to be a very logical and reasonable approach.
however you and i are fools, and the Yetzer has us almost completely in the dark. what do the Gedolim, those who see and understand, the ones who see the maze from up above, what do they say about this matter?January 8, 2009 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #630367
Actually, the Rambam in Hilchos Dayos perek vav says you must leave (or hunker down and stay in) if you will be influenced by the outside world to do evil.
Still not sure of your point.January 8, 2009 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #630368
My “agenda” was as Areivimzehlazeh correctly assumed, to begin a dialog on this issue. That of acclimating ourselves to our surroundings. It can’t be denied that it has happened on almost every level. When trains were first introduced into European towns many Rabbonim were against it. It was a train. It’s unfathomable to imagine the world today without it.
What we are against today will be the basics of lives in the future. Shouldn’t we all just aknowledge that the internet is here to stay and begin to adapt it to our purposes. Many people use various types of filters. But spending time and energy to ban something that is here to stay is pretty absurd. I heard that the Belzer Rebbe allows his chassidm to have internet. This rebbe is a realist.
I’m sure people can think of other issues that we can or have already adapted to. The internet is just one example. And adapting doesnt mean changing halacha, it means adapting other things to fit OUR lifetsyle.January 8, 2009 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #630369
TV is also here to stay, does that mean it can’t be avoided?
Credit Cards are here to stay, does that mean they can’t be avoided?
Our job is not to be realists, our job is to listen to da’as torah.January 9, 2009 12:15 am at 12:15 am #630370
Those are nice slogans, but they dont actually address the issue. In fact your argument is faulty, in that you are right that TV can be avoided and credit cards can be avoided, and if someone wants to they can avoid trains, planes and automobiles. I am referring to most people who do not live in Lancaster or New Square.January 9, 2009 12:21 am at 12:21 am #630371
Shouldn’t we all just aknowledge that the internet is here to stay and begin to adapt it to our purposes.
It will happen. As the internet becomes more and more necessarily for life, and as things (banking, for example) start becoming only available via the internet, it will eventually pervade the rest of the Jewish community as well. At that point, not having access to the internet becomes a “gezairah she’ain hatzibor yachol la’amod bah.”
The WolfJanuary 9, 2009 12:25 am at 12:25 am #630372
If you feel you are being influenced by the outside world to do evil, then you should leave town. But most people can live our lives without being affected by what occurs in San Francisco, or what billboards there are in Time Square, or anything else. What happens, happens, and we go on and live our lives.
And that is exactly my point. That we live our lives with evil around us and yet we persevere.January 9, 2009 12:58 am at 12:58 am #630373
If you avoid TV you can still make a living and function in this world. In fact you may function even better.
If you avoid the internet you will be closing off most legitimate avenues of earning a living. Also, for many products you now have to use the internet to get the best prices.January 9, 2009 1:00 am at 1:00 am #630374
The Big OneParticipant
gawker, firstly you are wrong about the Belzer Rebbem and secondly who is a pipsqueak like you to imply the Rabbonim are not “realists” for opposing the internet.
“it means adapting other things to fit OUR lifetsyle.”
No. It means adapting our lifestyle to fit the Torah, as espoused by the Gedolim Shlitta.January 9, 2009 1:01 am at 1:01 am #630375
Do you really think you are smarter than all the the rabbonim out there?January 9, 2009 1:28 am at 1:28 am #630376
gawker You didn’t answer nonpashut point We successfully avoided the tv(At least the majority of us).Imagine if we would say the tv is here to stay G-d forbid! The tv is here to stay for others!! The rabbanim have ways for us to use the internet but only if necessary for one’s business! why do we always think we our smarter than the rabanim?January 9, 2009 1:54 am at 1:54 am #630377
gawker… I hear what you are taining, however internet is not so simple like some of the other things that you mentioned. True there is Yetzer Hara involved in all the challenges that we have to pick through to run our lives and anyone can fall if not trying to prevent it. But internet has so many extra dangers to it that even the most heilige Yid can succumb to!
Especially because it’s a private thing. If you go to a store… people will see if you buy not tznius clothing. If you go swimming, it’s a matter of interaction, you’d get a really bad shem if you went mixed. But when it comes to internet, you can be so frum and everyone sees you as so frum, yet its all in privacy of you your self and the internet (and Hashem of course… but it’s easy to forget that!)
I know myself, I have no agenda to get involved in Tumah of the internet out there. And yet advertisements come in your face, or little things that are not so bad may start off yet it can turn to alot worse.
Al Taamin be’atzmecha AD YOM MOSCHA!! I have shocked myself at some things that I have permitted myself to be exposed to or involved with over the internet (No I am not talking about bad things. But yes I mean things I would be dead embarrassed if others knew me to have any shaiches to.)
It starts with a little surfing for XYZ and it has an amazing power of distraction as we ALL can testify to!January 9, 2009 2:00 am at 2:00 am #630378
oops, not done yet but I didnt want it to be too long 🙂
Even if you use it for good things, you need to be Extra careful. So many have fallen under because of it and that is why our Gedolim are smart and try to prevent more tragedies from happening. and dont tell me it doesnt happen Because I personally know people that killed their lives from it… and it all started with a littel boredom or having fun. I can throw up thinking about it!
If you have kids, even if you use it for good things… they may not. And if you protect it from them, let them be aware that you dont use it for bad things or they may think you are twofaced if you dont let them use it but you do.
It is so dangerous. Its not like any other sitch where you just adapt. Again, it has its mailos too.
A freaky video/cd rom you should see called “caught in the web” a project of the foundation for internet safety. I think its a must for all parents!
And even if we dont understand… we have to trust our gedolim. If we dont… then who do we trust?!?January 9, 2009 3:34 am at 3:34 am #630379
Isnt everybody in this forum who is arguing with gawker being a hypocrite? I dont understand how people can say things, true as they are, like: “It means adapting our lifestyle to fit the Torah, as espoused by the Gedolim Shlitta”, “why do we always think we our smarter than the rabanim”, “we have to trust our gedolim”!!!! and not listen to the gedolim.
HELLOOOOOOOO, arent you the very people not currently using the internet for business but rather for information and enjoyment? if these are truly your beliefs than go read WallStreetJournal.com and invest your money on E-Trade. but what are you doing here?January 9, 2009 3:41 am at 3:41 am #630380
ah, azi… good point. and I must admit you’re more right then I want to believe.
Some ppl in here have protected net. others dont. yet it still has its downfalls and we are all having to good of a time.January 9, 2009 4:42 am at 4:42 am #630381
Being on line is like walking a tightrope, one has to be spiritually balanced otherwise the yetza Hara will help one fall. I lost my internet connection for a few days, and I started to feel like I was going Cold Turkey and I felt revived when my service was restored. One needs very good Emunah and an ordered life to use the internet in our sophisticated technological world.January 9, 2009 5:01 am at 5:01 am #630382
Interesting, i wrote “the tv is here to stay for the GOYIM” somebody changed it to OTHERS.January 9, 2009 7:44 am at 7:44 am #630383
A hypocrite can also be right.January 9, 2009 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #630384
Wow! i dont even know what to say to that.
You by addmiting to being a hypocrite, ipso facto admitted to using the internet for purposes other then what the rabbonim recommend. Therefore either (1) you dont really agree with them and chose to do what you want, or (2) you agree with them but cant help your self, and you are the type of person on the internt that the rabbonim are worried about.
I guess i was able to think of something.January 9, 2009 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #630385
Agreed, but the internet is such a strong influence due to infinite access that it has to be controled (my rav did not say banned), possibly from the outside.January 9, 2009 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #630386
I don’t understand. If people need the internet for work and to get good prices on stuff, why don’t you get an internet filter? You will still be able to go on the sites that you need to go on, and it will block the pop-ups etc.January 9, 2009 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #630387
“My “agenda” was as Areivimzehlazeh correctly assumed, to begin a dialog on this issue. That of acclimating ourselves to our surroundings.”
In this week’s parsha, Yaakov Aveinu institutes the blessing that all future generations of Jews would use to bless their children: “May you be like Ephraim and Menashe”. Now, this raises the question: What was so special about Ephraim and Menashe, compared to not only Yaakov’s other grandchildren, but his sons as well, that they are used as the quintessential example that our children, and ourselves, should emulate?
It is because they spent their entire lives in exile, not nurtured in the home of Yaakov, but surrounded by the Egyptian culture of impurity and yet they managed to remain pure and dedicated to Yaakov’s way of life and beliefs.
This is our challenge as well, to remain as pure and holy as we can, by living lives dedicated to Torah and mitzvot, and not allowing ourselves to assimilate into the surrounding secular culture.January 9, 2009 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #630388
I doubt it was your intention, but you actually stengthened my point.January 9, 2009 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #630389
The bottom line is to just follow the directives of the Gedolim.January 9, 2009 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #630390
I doubt it was your intention, but you actually stengthened my point. “
no gawker your point is that we SHOULD assimilate (use the tools and ways of the nations) but we should control it and use it in a higher way. you didnt understand Dovids point at all.January 9, 2009 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #630391
You have assimilated by taking part in this internet forum……..and you didn’t understand what I said or what dovid_yehuda said.January 9, 2009 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #630392
gawker, you’re missing everyone’s point. The point is we need gedarim. And that means the Rabbonim must advise us what those gedarim are. And if we (inappropriately or not) jump over one geder, does not discount the need of another.January 10, 2009 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #630393
I’m not nuts. I do have a filter & therefore I AM within the letter of the law.
NEVERTHELESS, I should be more vigilant in terms of the bittul zman that is involved even on the “kosher” websites.
It so happens that this is the only website I frequent, yet I am still ashamed & feel I should cut down or eliminate it completely. In that sense I feel like a bit of a hypocrite.
That doesn’t mean that I can’t critisize the “porkei ol” who spew anti-rabbinic garbage at every opputunity.January 10, 2009 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #630394
Maybe im just too sensitive to hypocrisie than all the rest of you.
It may not bother you to aknowledge the directives of the rabbonim and in the same breath write that you are jumping over them. But it bothers me greatly.
Bogen, my whole point was that we should have gedarim as opposed to outright bans, which if you’ve been alive since this topic was posted on YWN, yo would know never work.January 11, 2009 6:50 am at 6:50 am #630395
“It may not bother you to aknowledge the directives of the rabbonim and in the same breath write that you are jumping over them. But it bothers me greatly.”
So it’s better to just ignore them completely?
Second of all, I cleary stated that it DOES bother me.
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