June 17, 2020 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1873634
Whether to go to Israel to live there or not is an old halachic discussion. The Aim Habanim Semacha, Rav Yisochor Teichtal ztz’l Hy’d held as the Yerushalmi in Maaser Sheni (5,2) quoted by the Tosfas Yom Tov there. We must go there to start building the Beis Hamikdash on which will descend the one of fire. This must happen before the coming of Meshiach. The Satmar Rav ztz’l says that Eliyahu Hanovi must come first as we don’t know how to build it so the geula will happen spontaneously strictly from the heaven without our intervention. If we do form a government before hand, we violate the three oaths. This was an argument by the Meraglim who held that they must do it themselves as they are not worthy of heavenly intervention.
Moshe Rabbenu wanted to prove that we needed heavenly intervention as they are so strong that they cannot conquer them on their own. As to being worthy, we are not sometimes worthy of our daily sustenance but Hashem keeps his promise to our forefathers even if we are not worthy of it. A promise even on a condition is kept. Once we entered Eretz Yisroel then we have to become worthy to stay there. Look at the first Rashi in Breishis. The land belongs to Him, so He decides who lives there
If there is a mitzva currently of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, we cannot be motzei the other as it would be a mitzva shebegufa with is mitzva on him personally as sukkah. The gemora says that people live long in Babel because they come early and late to the Beis Hamedrash. Asks the Meharsha, it is still not Eretz Yisroel? He answers that Beis Hamedrash and Beis Hakneses of Ch’l will become part of EY. What is the answer? Must be that it is considered now like being in EY when one is in a Beis Hamedrash ot Beis Haknesses in Ch’l because it will become part of it later on. That could be why by Moshe Rabbenu, when it says Vayelech Moshe the Targum Yonasan says that he went to the Beis Hamidrash, to mekayem the mitzva of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel.June 17, 2020 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #18736911Participant
Those who can buy an apartment in EY and who can earn a living there should move there.June 17, 2020 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1873700jdbParticipant
Just come home. We are here, waiting for you.June 17, 2020 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1873698kollelmanParticipant
The RaMBaN holds it’s a mitzva de’Oraysa if I’m not mistaken to live in EY and every 4 Amos of walking there a person is performing the mitzva.June 17, 2020 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1873709reb mutcheParticipant
Go for it.
i made aliya 19.5 years ago and didn’t regret it for a minute.
There is no place like HOME!June 17, 2020 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #1873877MilhouseParticipant
Living in Eretz Yisroel, if one can do it, is definitely a good thing, but whether it’s an actual mitzvah depends on a machlokes Rambam and Ramban. The Ramban holds that the mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisroel applies at all times. But the Rambam holds that it was a one-time command to the generation who came in with Yehoshua and does not apply nowadays; nowadays it’s only a desirable thing, but not itself a mitzvah.
However there is one thing everyone agrees on: A Jew may never consider chutz lo’oretz his home. Eretz Yisroel is always every Jew’s home, it’s just that most of us, for one reason or another, are currently living away from home. A person may live away from home for an extended period, whether for work, or something he has to do in some other place, or just to experience a different country; but his legal home remains the place where he intends eventually to return. That’s where he is based for taxes and voting, and for his driver’s license, and that is what the gemara means when it says that “Whoever lives in chutz lo’oretz is as if he has no G-d”. The moment a Jew says of chu”l “This is my home, I have no reason ever to leave here”, then he has become an apikores.June 18, 2020 9:46 am at 9:46 am #1873953
The Maharal in Netzach Yisroel says that something that is out of its place is not comfortable there and will eventually return to its place. Our place is Eretz Yisroel, so we are out of place.June 18, 2020 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1874090
There are those who intuitively understand that a Jew’s place is in The Land. The Torah, starting from the beginning and continuing to the end is the story of the Jewish people striving to live in The Land. It is so obvious, that it is indeed wondrous that so many have missed it.
Reb Eliezer the Learned, not all of us are out of place.June 18, 2020 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1874044BeUrBestParticipant
While ideally one can debate the shailah, there are a number of practical issues to seriously consider before uprooting oneself and family and moving to a different country. Often that means leaving family, friends, business connections, shul, Rav, circle of influence, and more behind. The chinuch system is very different. The Culture is different. The language is different. All of these elements create challenges that we don’t currently have. There can often result in a major disconnect between children and parents as a result of these things too. That’s if the children actually succeed in finding themselves and their identity. Many children struggle with that in very serious ways. How many of us would get up and move our family to a foreign country where they speak a foreign language and we don’t know the schools well just because there are a number of benefits being offered?
Maybe we need to think about where we can be the best that we can be using our full capabilities to fulfill the ratzon hashem and raise our children to be the best they can be too.June 18, 2020 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1874107
“Maybe we need to think about where we can be the best that we can be using our full capabilities to fulfill the ratzon hashem and raise our children to be the best they can be too.”
Maybe, just maybe, the retzon hashem is for us to live in the land He promised us, and to raise our children to be the best they can be in the land that He promised us. Crazy idea, I know.June 18, 2020 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1874169commonsaychelParticipant
To all the people who posted here that they live in Israel because of the mitzva, just curious if you raise donkeys too because of mitzva of petter chomor and raise sheep because of the mitzva of Raish hagezJune 18, 2020 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1874208Someone in MonseyParticipant
I have the concept in my mind, although without being able to point to or recall a source, that we are forbidden as a people to move en masse to Eretz Yisroel before the Geula. If this is actually sourced, then that would clearly mean there is no chiuv to move to Eretz Yisroel – it would remain an individual decision, based on all pertinent factors.June 18, 2020 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #1874219
Someone, I think it is in Kesuvos (111,1) shlo yaalu lechoma, not to force ourseves en masse to Eretz Yisroel.June 19, 2020 8:20 am at 8:20 am #1874297Someone in MonseyParticipant
Sh’koyach, Reb Eliezer.June 19, 2020 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #1874447
Indeed, it is one of the three shvu’ot as Reb Eliezer pointed out. It is in Kesuvos 110b
It is the basis for the Satmar anti-zionist ideology. Also see the Tosfos there and the opinion of Rabeinu Chaim.
I find it odd that someone would denigrate living in Israel because of the “mitzva” , simply because they don’t raise sheep or donkeys. Besides, any person with some Talmudic knowledge should know that Petter Hamor or Reishit Hagez is a mitzvah kiyumit and there is no obligation to own a donkey or raise sheep. If yishuv EY is indeed one of the 613 mitzvot, it is an obligation, a hovat gavra.
Nonetheless, most everyone I know who moved to Israel did so because this is Home for the Jewish people. As I mentioned above, it should be obvious to all.June 22, 2020 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1875296
If you cant see american society crumbling around you and at least start to think about maybe its time to you are truly hopeless and deserve evertrhing coming down the pike. You will be like the 80% who never got out of mitzrayim cuz life was too good there to leave.June 22, 2020 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1875344TRUEBTParticipant
Yes, it is an old halachic discussion. The halacha was codified in a Sefer called Pe’at Hashulchan. (pronounced Pa’as Hashulchan by Ashkenazim.) No one should be paskining against this sefer unless they paskin like Satmar in everything else. As others have pointed out, nowadays, it’s either a mitzva D’oreisa or a mitzva D’rabannan according to nearly all poskim. As BeUrBest pointed out, there are reasons that prevent us from doing mitzvos which means we are patur – until those reasons aren’t there anymore. I am going to disagree with BY1212. For anyone to pass judgement and say that this group of Shomer Shabbos Jews are hopeless or that group of Shomer Shabbos Jews deserves to be punished is Lashon Hara.
I would recommend that we start getting our passports up to date. Hishtadlus is always a good idea.June 23, 2020 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1875675June 23, 2020 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1875744June 25, 2020 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1876384
“Truly hopeless” or “too good to leave”? Make up your mind (once, not twice).June 25, 2020 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1876385
Correction. Satmar’s opinion is based the three oaths. Not the other way around. Actually, this was the chiddush of the Minchas Elazer zy”a. We say Satmar, because of a notable disciple of the MNE went on to demonstrate the the Holocaust was enough of a reason to change his opinion.June 26, 2020 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1877008
I wouldn’t kind raising a donkey in Israel. I wouldn’t mind harvesting grapes in Israel. I wouldn’t mind spending the rest of my life in Israel.June 30, 2020 3:34 am at 3:34 am #1877971
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. Of course, the Va’Yoel Moshe’s ideology is based on the three shvuos. The Minchas Elazar was also a quite vociferous bona-fide anti-zionist, I was not aware that it was his chiddush, thanks for pointing that out.
I have my own interpretation of the three shvuos which obviates the need to find reasons (only aggadah, not paskened l’halachah anywhere, the goyim didn’t keep their end, etc…) to ignore them.June 30, 2020 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1878188
There is an eloquent speech/essay (I don’t remember which.) from Rabbi Meir Kahane making exactly that case. Let the UN be founded upon keeping their oaths and we will keep ours. Which leads to the traditional views of the oaths. The Minchas Elazer wrote as a polemic to the long responsa of the Avnei Nezer, which has a lot of practical advice on moving to Eretz Yisrael. (Besides for stating that even the Rambam considered it a mitzvah even today.) The Avnei Nezer makes no mention of the oaths. And there is no record of them being considered by any of the religous movements. The idea to apply the oaths to the ongoing discussion was and still is considered a chiddush. The question is, why was it self-understood that the oaths are not a problem?July 1, 2020 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1878514
It is a Mitzvah to live in Israel.
One’s interested in making Aliyah shouldn’t be dominated by physical reasons like the Tsionist movement. It should be dominated by the spirituality of the holy land. “Spiritual reasons include the kedushah of Erets Yisrael and it’s kehilos.July 1, 2020 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1878579
The Zionist movement is not physical. Historic. Nationalistic. Idealistic. Utopian. Socialistic. Rationalistic. Revolutionary. Reactionary. And the reverse too.
See the Avnei Nezer’s t’shueva. It includes many physical considerations.July 1, 2020 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1878660
When it comes to the oaths, the Vayoel Moshe proofs its severity from the punishment of the Bnei Elhraim leaving 30 years before the time where 200,000 were slaughtered by the Philistines. See the Targum Yanoson in the beginning of Parashas Beshalach for not leading tne Bnei Yisroel tbe shorter way.July 2, 2020 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1878741
Nom, you seem just to be arguing just for the sake of arguing otherwise known as לקנטר but I will answer your “stira” anyway.
Truly hopeless= one who can’t see the potential disaster facing the u.s.
Why can’t you see this disaster? Precisely bc at this very given moment or at least what you have gotten used to your whole life- bc life in America has been so good.
So in short:. life being so good in America has made you truly hopeless to seeing any dangers are coming down the pike.
Life for many in Poland was also very good – this blinded people to the dangers that were just around the corner. In 2020 Hashem is being quite overt in demonstrating the potential dangers. For that reason one who cannot see them is truly hopeless.
It is puzzling why this even had to be explainedJuly 2, 2020 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1878742
Truebt : so when chazal say אין מרחמים על מי שאין בו דעת it was loshon horo?
I am not picking on a specific person or group but condemning a theoretical behavior. Sheesh.
You can agree or disagree with how I feel about the theoretical someone who obstinately refuses to see what is happening around him but no need for you to get on your loshon horo high horse.
The issur of Loshon horo was not meant to be a convenient,
self serving excuse to shut down discussion.July 3, 2020 12:16 am at 12:16 am #18791191Participant
It’s a shame how much negativity about living in EY was spread by some in the yeshiva and chasidish communities. There’s no place where your spiritual ceiling can be higher than in EY? There’s a מצוות עשה קיומית from living in EY. I don’t think the spirituality argument for not living in EY holds up anymore. People who say that are afraid of leading their comfort zone and copping out. Making parnassah is an important factor. Obviously one needs to have that straightened out before moving to EY. Raising kids there would be a challenge. As with any shaila ablut doing a mitzvah, you should ask your rabbi.July 3, 2020 9:41 am at 9:41 am #1879159
I am a Zionist and an observant Jew. I don’t say frum because I know from experience that many Jews, mostly chassidishe do not regard me as frum. Kippah srugah, tzitzit in my pants, no peyos, you get it (yes beard)…No matter.
Maybe I’m missing something, but I do not detect any animosity from you in our interesting discussions here, and I’m not sure why others are calling you out. No matter. Whether you live in Israel is immaterial for this discussion. I live at the western tip of Eretz Binyamin.
I think the reason that the three oaths have merited a revival is that for almost two thousand years they were irrelevant. In the traditional understanding of them , till the Zionists showed up, they had never been put to the test, and could be ignored. The ant-zionist Rabbis , knowing shas very well, pulled them out and gave them supreme authority over the future of the Jewish people. To an objective observer, this comes as a surprise. If these oaths are so powerful, where are they battled out in the Rishonim? Why is there total silence in the sifrei halachah and pre-sifrei halachah? The Rosh, the Tur, Or Zarua, Maharam, Ra’avyah, Mechaber, Rama, where is it? The obvious answer is that it is another example among thousands of aggadic discussion, and has minimal if any weight in determining the required behavior of the Nation of Israel .
As I mentioned, I have a non-traditional but fully “frum” understanding of the three oaths. For another time…July 3, 2020 10:11 am at 10:11 am #1879160
The Vayoel Moshe’s interpretation of the Bnei Ephraim’s actions and their eventual defeat is just an interpretation. It is in no way proof of anything. It is important to distinguish support of a position in an argument from proof of that position.July 3, 2020 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1879248
The Tarum Yonason is not the original source for the B’nei Ephraim Additionally, it does not state that they were punshed for trying to go to Eretz Yisroel.July 3, 2020 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1879264
I very much see the a potential disaster. It is not one bit comparable to Poland in the 1930’s. Which was very bleak. And was not a much better an option for Torah-dedicated Yidden than America even in those days.
There was no way for millions of Yidden to migrate one hundred years ago. There still is no way.July 3, 2020 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1879273
The passion is from before I entered the tread and asked my question.
Even after the Zionists were among the most influential in Europe, the three oaths concept was the leading discussion only in the quadrant below Galicia. The Munkatcher’s views were recanted publicly by one Rabbinical personality during the war. Then it was greatly expanded on after the war by The Satmar Rav ZT”L.
I could follow the anti-Zionist positions somewhat. I do not understand why so many Yidden think that the three oaths shtickel is not an amazing chiddush. And, the majority of people who claimed to have studied the seforim on the this topic are unable to defend it under cross examination. If someone is seriously anti-Zionist that should look for a position besides Satmar.July 12, 2020 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1881608
YOU CAN MOVE TO ISRAEL WITHOUT JOINING an apikorisdig movement that opposes Yiddishkeit. You can settle there without having to be DatiLeumi.July 18, 2020 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #1883230
I didn’t want to go into detail during the heat of the debate, but I did want to share some thoughts.
I would like to add that I was not born into a Khareidi or Dati family (though I am now involved in a Yeshivish community). Currently, I do not identify as part of the Tsionist movement even though I did before I became Shomer Shabbos. I only identified with the word “Tsionist” back when I knew little Torah and had a developing interest in identifying as a Jew. I became less interested when I became aware that the Jewish religion is the crown of the Jewish Nation and essential in the preservation of nation. I guess identifying with a word like “Tsionist” is just as logically irrelevant as whether or not someone identifies with any other “-ist” or “-ism”.
There were Yidden making Aliyah in the Pre-British [colonial] era. The Rambam was, at on point there, and there was the khevra in Tsfas. The Khassidish and Yeshivish/Litvish sub-cultures of Ashkenazi Yidden have well-established communities in Eretz Yisrael. So do Sfardim! The user “Rational” did have a good point by saying this wasn’t battled out generations ago. If there was, then there would have already been commentary about it.
The Gemara in Kesubos actually claims that the 3 Oaths are really 6 Oaths. The gemara in Kesubos also claims that one who makes Aliyah should make the opposite of Aliyah.The gemara also claims the following:
ת”ר לעולם ידור אדם בא”י אפי’ בעיר שרובה עובדי כוכבים ואל ידור בחו”ל ואפילו בעיר שרובה ישראל שכל הדר בארץ ישראל דומה כמי שיש לו אלוה וכל הדר בחוצה לארץ דומה כמי שאין לו אלוה שנא’ (ויקרא כה, לח) לתת לכם את ארץ כנען להיות לכם לאלהים
The Rabbis taught: A man should always live in the Land of Israel, even in a city of which the majority are idolaters, and not live outside of the Land of Israel, even in a city where the majority is Jewish. For whoever lives in the Land of Israel, it is as if he has a God. And whoever lives outside of the Land of Israel, it is as if he has no God. For it is said (Leviticus 25:38): “to give you the land of Canaan, to be your God.” -Kesubos Daf Kuf-Yud Amud Beis.
How can one choose not to live in Israel when there are [ברוך השם] many Khareidi communities one can live in? BeUrBest claimed that it’s different which makes sense. It’s surely not like America; it’s surely not like any other part of the world. Toldos Aharon is based in Israel. Other good rebbes live in Israel too. I don’t understand why many Jews practically worship New York. Shouldn’t the trend of moving to Lakewood at least signify something?
Someone interested in learning an entire concept should learn not just one part of one sugya but the whole thing. It’s not like every Pre-Tsionist Rabbi was historically against Aliyah. However, some people have tried to manipulate and amplify a specific hashkafah in order to make it look like that.
I am also upset that “holier than thou” people have openly misused (if not abusted) the 3 Oaths and misued the words of the Satmar Rebbe and Brisker Rav. I’ve only heard the words “Satmar” and “Brisk” being in the same paragraph in reference to Tsionism. However, I was never told by [most of] those who oppose Tsionism that living in Israel is literally a bad thing to do. I’ve ironically met a Tsionist who doesn’t believe he is ready to make Aliyah.
During the Corona Pandemic, I realized that it can be hard to live anywhere, so why not live in the land that was meant for us? My interest in making aliyah is dominated by rukhnius. There are more people there interested in rukhnius. The Israeli people that are “Kharedi” take Yiddishkeit seriously. Marriage is a holy thing, and for my type, it is better for shiddukhim. The secondary motivation (which I did not learn untill after applying to make aliyah) is financial. Certain schools have subsidies. It’s not like America (which is too big and diverse to have Israel’s socioeconomic system). You don’t have to be a money-chasing animal that has to take up a lucrative career. I intended to make Aliyah in the true way – which implies making it without the intent of leaving. That is the true Aliyah.
P.S. I did call Tsionism a “physical” reason to imply that it is secular and should not be seen as Kadosh as the mitzvah of living in the desireable land that Our Father gave us. Politics is part of the physical world just like economics. It’s בעצם secular.
And as a late and irrelevant comment to “Rational”: tucking in tzitzit doesn’t make someone not Frum. It would specifically depend on the reasons why one tucks it in.July 19, 2020 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1883682
Not living in Eretz Yisrael comes down to ‘living’ factors. Not so much halachic or political conditions. Those will change much faster than the conditions that we created for ourselves.
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