Living in Eretz Yisroel

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  • #1873634
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Whether to go to Israel to live there or not is an old halachic discussion. The Aim Habanim Semacha, Rav Yisochor Teichtal ztz’l Hy’d held as the Yerushalmi in Maaser Sheni (5,2) quoted by the Tosfas Yom Tov there. We must go there to start building the Beis Hamikdash on which will descend the one of fire. This must happen before the coming of Meshiach. The Satmar Rav ztz’l says that Eliyahu Hanovi must come first as we don’t know how to build it so the geula will happen spontaneously strictly from the heaven without our intervention. If we do form a government before hand, we violate the three oaths. This was an argument by the Meraglim who held that they must do it themselves as they are not worthy of heavenly intervention.
    Moshe Rabbenu wanted to prove that we needed heavenly intervention as they are so strong that they cannot conquer them on their own. As to being worthy, we are not sometimes worthy of our daily sustenance but Hashem keeps his promise to our forefathers even if we are not worthy of it. A promise even on a condition is kept. Once we entered Eretz Yisroel then we have to become worthy to stay there. Look at the first Rashi in Breishis. The land belongs to Him, so He decides who lives there
    If there is a mitzva currently of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, we cannot be motzei the other as it would be a mitzva shebegufa with is mitzva on him personally as sukkah. The gemora says that people live long in Babel because they come early and late to the Beis Hamedrash. Asks the Meharsha, it is still not Eretz Yisroel? He answers that Beis Hamedrash and Beis Hakneses of Ch’l will become part of EY. What is the answer? Must be that it is considered now like being in EY when one is in a Beis Hamedrash ot Beis Haknesses in Ch’l because it will become part of it later on. That could be why by Moshe Rabbenu, when it says Vayelech Moshe the Targum Yonasan says that he went to the Beis Hamidrash, to mekayem the mitzva of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel.

    #1873691
    1
    Participant

    Those who can buy an apartment in EY and who can earn a living there should move there.

    #1873700
    jdb
    Participant

    Just come home. We are here, waiting for you.

    #1873698
    kollelman
    Participant

    The RaMBaN holds it’s a mitzva de’Oraysa if I’m not mistaken to live in EY and every 4 Amos of walking there a person is performing the mitzva.

    #1873709
    reb mutche
    Participant

    Go for it.

    i made aliya 19.5 years ago and didn’t regret it for a minute.

    There is no place like HOME!

    #1873877
    Milhouse
    Participant

    Living in Eretz Yisroel, if one can do it, is definitely a good thing, but whether it’s an actual mitzvah depends on a machlokes Rambam and Ramban. The Ramban holds that the mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisroel applies at all times. But the Rambam holds that it was a one-time command to the generation who came in with Yehoshua and does not apply nowadays; nowadays it’s only a desirable thing, but not itself a mitzvah.

    However there is one thing everyone agrees on: A Jew may never consider chutz lo’oretz his home. Eretz Yisroel is always every Jew’s home, it’s just that most of us, for one reason or another, are currently living away from home. A person may live away from home for an extended period, whether for work, or something he has to do in some other place, or just to experience a different country; but his legal home remains the place where he intends eventually to return. That’s where he is based for taxes and voting, and for his driver’s license, and that is what the gemara means when it says that “Whoever lives in chutz lo’oretz is as if he has no G-d”. The moment a Jew says of chu”l “This is my home, I have no reason ever to leave here”, then he has become an apikores.

    #1873953
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Maharal in Netzach Yisroel says that something that is out of its place is not comfortable there and will eventually return to its place. Our place is Eretz Yisroel, so we are out of place.

    #1874090
    rational
    Participant

    There are those who intuitively understand that a Jew’s place is in The Land. The Torah, starting from the beginning and continuing to the end is the story of the Jewish people striving to live in The Land. It is so obvious, that it is indeed wondrous that so many have missed it.

    Reb Eliezer the Learned, not all of us are out of place.

    #1874044
    BeUrBest
    Participant

    While ideally one can debate the shailah, there are a number of practical issues to seriously consider before uprooting oneself and family and moving to a different country. Often that means leaving family, friends, business connections, shul, Rav, circle of influence, and more behind. The chinuch system is very different. The Culture is different. The language is different. All of these elements create challenges that we don’t currently have. There can often result in a major disconnect between children and parents as a result of these things too. That’s if the children actually succeed in finding themselves and their identity. Many children struggle with that in very serious ways. How many of us would get up and move our family to a foreign country where they speak a foreign language and we don’t know the schools well just because there are a number of benefits being offered?
    Maybe we need to think about where we can be the best that we can be using our full capabilities to fulfill the ratzon hashem and raise our children to be the best they can be too.

    #1874107
    rational
    Participant

    “Maybe we need to think about where we can be the best that we can be using our full capabilities to fulfill the ratzon hashem and raise our children to be the best they can be too.”

    Maybe, just maybe, the retzon hashem is for us to live in the land He promised us, and to raise our children to be the best they can be in the land that He promised us. Crazy idea, I know.

    #1874169
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    To all the people who posted here that they live in Israel because of the mitzva, just curious if you raise donkeys too because of mitzva of petter chomor and raise sheep because of the mitzva of Raish hagez

    #1874208
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    I have the concept in my mind, although without being able to point to or recall a source, that we are forbidden as a people to move en masse to Eretz Yisroel before the Geula. If this is actually sourced, then that would clearly mean there is no chiuv to move to Eretz Yisroel – it would remain an individual decision, based on all pertinent factors.

    #1874219
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Someone, I think it is in Kesuvos (111,1) shlo yaalu lechoma, not to force ourseves en masse to Eretz Yisroel.

    #1874297
    Someone in Monsey
    Participant

    Sh’koyach, Reb Eliezer.

    #1874447
    rational
    Participant

    Indeed, it is one of the three shvu’ot as Reb Eliezer pointed out. It is in Kesuvos 110b
    It is the basis for the Satmar anti-zionist ideology. Also see the Tosfos there and the opinion of Rabeinu Chaim.

    I find it odd that someone would denigrate living in Israel because of the “mitzva” , simply because they don’t raise sheep or donkeys. Besides, any person with some Talmudic knowledge should know that Petter Hamor or Reishit Hagez is a mitzvah kiyumit and there is no obligation to own a donkey or raise sheep. If yishuv EY is indeed one of the 613 mitzvot, it is an obligation, a hovat gavra.

    Nonetheless, most everyone I know who moved to Israel did so because this is Home for the Jewish people. As I mentioned above, it should be obvious to all.

    #1875296
    BY1212
    Participant

    If you cant see american society crumbling around you and at least start to think about maybe its time to you are truly hopeless and deserve evertrhing coming down the pike. You will be like the 80% who never got out of mitzrayim cuz life was too good there to leave.

    #1875344
    TRUEBT
    Participant

    Yes, it is an old halachic discussion. The halacha was codified in a Sefer called Pe’at Hashulchan. (pronounced Pa’as Hashulchan by Ashkenazim.) No one should be paskining against this sefer unless they paskin like Satmar in everything else. As others have pointed out, nowadays, it’s either a mitzva D’oreisa or a mitzva D’rabannan according to nearly all poskim. As BeUrBest pointed out, there are reasons that prevent us from doing mitzvos which means we are patur – until those reasons aren’t there anymore. I am going to disagree with BY1212. For anyone to pass judgement and say that this group of Shomer Shabbos Jews are hopeless or that group of Shomer Shabbos Jews deserves to be punished is Lashon Hara.
    I would recommend that we start getting our passports up to date. Hishtadlus is always a good idea.

    #1875675
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @truebt
    Do you raise donkeys to do the mitzva of petter chomor?

    #1875744
    asimpleyid
    Participant

    @commonsaychel
    did you read rationals post?

    #1876384
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear By,
    “Truly hopeless” or “too good to leave”? Make up your mind (once, not twice).

    #1876385
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Ration,
    Correction. Satmar’s opinion is based the three oaths. Not the other way around. Actually, this was the chiddush of the Minchas Elazer zy”a. We say Satmar, because of a notable disciple of the MNE went on to demonstrate the the Holocaust was enough of a reason to change his opinion.

    #1877008
    KGN
    Participant

    I wouldn’t kind raising a donkey in Israel. I wouldn’t mind harvesting grapes in Israel. I wouldn’t mind spending the rest of my life in Israel.

    #1877971
    rational
    Participant

    Dear Nomesorah
    Sorry if I wasn’t clear. Of course, the Va’Yoel Moshe’s ideology is based on the three shvuos. The Minchas Elazar was also a quite vociferous bona-fide anti-zionist, I was not aware that it was his chiddush, thanks for pointing that out.

    I have my own interpretation of the three shvuos which obviates the need to find reasons (only aggadah, not paskened l’halachah anywhere, the goyim didn’t keep their end, etc…) to ignore them.

    #1878188
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Rational,
    There is an eloquent speech/essay (I don’t remember which.) from Rabbi Meir Kahane making exactly that case. Let the UN be founded upon keeping their oaths and we will keep ours. Which leads to the traditional views of the oaths. The Minchas Elazer wrote as a polemic to the long responsa of the Avnei Nezer, which has a lot of practical advice on moving to Eretz Yisrael. (Besides for stating that even the Rambam considered it a mitzvah even today.) The Avnei Nezer makes no mention of the oaths. And there is no record of them being considered by any of the religous movements. The idea to apply the oaths to the ongoing discussion was and still is considered a chiddush. The question is, why was it self-understood that the oaths are not a problem?

    #1878514
    KGN
    Participant

    It is a Mitzvah to live in Israel.

    One’s interested in making Aliyah shouldn’t be dominated by physical reasons like the Tsionist movement. It should be dominated by the spirituality of the holy land. “Spiritual reasons include the kedushah of Erets Yisrael and it’s kehilos.

    #1878579
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    The Zionist movement is not physical. Historic. Nationalistic. Idealistic. Utopian. Socialistic. Rationalistic. Revolutionary. Reactionary. And the reverse too.

    See the Avnei Nezer’s t’shueva. It includes many physical considerations.

    #1878660
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When it comes to the oaths, the Vayoel Moshe proofs its severity from the punishment of the Bnei Elhraim leaving 30 years before the time where 200,000 were slaughtered by the Philistines. See the Targum Yanoson in the beginning of Parashas Beshalach for not leading tne Bnei Yisroel tbe shorter way.

    #1878741
    BY1212
    Participant

    Nom, you seem just to be arguing just for the sake of arguing otherwise known as לקנטר but I will answer your “stira” anyway.

    Truly hopeless= one who can’t see the potential disaster facing the u.s.

    Why can’t you see this disaster? Precisely bc at this very given moment or at least what you have gotten used to your whole life- bc life in America has been so good.

    So in short:. life being so good in America has made you truly hopeless to seeing any dangers are coming down the pike.

    Life for many in Poland was also very good – this blinded people to the dangers that were just around the corner. In 2020 Hashem is being quite overt in demonstrating the potential dangers. For that reason one who cannot see them is truly hopeless.

    It is puzzling why this even had to be explained

    #1878742
    BY1212
    Participant

    Truebt : so when chazal say אין מרחמים על מי שאין בו דעת it was loshon horo?

    I am not picking on a specific person or group but condemning a theoretical behavior. Sheesh.

    You can agree or disagree with how I feel about the theoretical someone who obstinately refuses to see what is happening around him but no need for you to get on your loshon horo high horse.

    The issur of Loshon horo was not meant to be a convenient,
    self serving excuse to shut down discussion.

    #1879119
    1
    Participant

    It’s a shame how much negativity about living in EY was spread by some in the yeshiva and chasidish communities. There’s no place where your spiritual ceiling can be higher than in EY? There’s a מצוות עשה קיומית from living in EY. I don’t think the spirituality argument for not living in EY holds up anymore. People who say that are afraid of leading their comfort zone and copping out. Making parnassah is an important factor. Obviously one needs to have that straightened out before moving to EY. Raising kids there would be a challenge. As with any shaila ablut doing a mitzvah, you should ask your rabbi.

    #1879159
    rational
    Participant

    Dear Nomesorah

    I am a Zionist and an observant Jew. I don’t say frum because I know from experience that many Jews, mostly chassidishe do not regard me as frum. Kippah srugah, tzitzit in my pants, no peyos, you get it (yes beard)…No matter.

    Maybe I’m missing something, but I do not detect any animosity from you in our interesting discussions here, and I’m not sure why others are calling you out. No matter. Whether you live in Israel is immaterial for this discussion. I live at the western tip of Eretz Binyamin.

    I think the reason that the three oaths have merited a revival is that for almost two thousand years they were irrelevant. In the traditional understanding of them , till the Zionists showed up, they had never been put to the test, and could be ignored. The ant-zionist Rabbis , knowing shas very well, pulled them out and gave them supreme authority over the future of the Jewish people. To an objective observer, this comes as a surprise. If these oaths are so powerful, where are they battled out in the Rishonim? Why is there total silence in the sifrei halachah and pre-sifrei halachah? The Rosh, the Tur, Or Zarua, Maharam, Ra’avyah, Mechaber, Rama, where is it? The obvious answer is that it is another example among thousands of aggadic discussion, and has minimal if any weight in determining the required behavior of the Nation of Israel .

    As I mentioned, I have a non-traditional but fully “frum” understanding of the three oaths. For another time…

    #1879160
    rational
    Participant

    The Vayoel Moshe’s interpretation of the Bnei Ephraim’s actions and their eventual defeat is just an interpretation. It is in no way proof of anything. It is important to distinguish support of a position in an argument from proof of that position.

    #1879248
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Rebeliezer,
    The Tarum Yonason is not the original source for the B’nei Ephraim Additionally, it does not state that they were punshed for trying to go to Eretz Yisroel.

    #1879264
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear By,
    I very much see the a potential disaster. It is not one bit comparable to Poland in the 1930’s. Which was very bleak. And was not a much better an option for Torah-dedicated Yidden than America even in those days.

    There was no way for millions of Yidden to migrate one hundred years ago. There still is no way.

    #1879273
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Rational,
    The passion is from before I entered the tread and asked my question.

    Even after the Zionists were among the most influential in Europe, the three oaths concept was the leading discussion only in the quadrant below Galicia. The Munkatcher’s views were recanted publicly by one Rabbinical personality during the war. Then it was greatly expanded on after the war by The Satmar Rav ZT”L.

    I could follow the anti-Zionist positions somewhat. I do not understand why so many Yidden think that the three oaths shtickel is not an amazing chiddush. And, the majority of people who claimed to have studied the seforim on the this topic are unable to defend it under cross examination. If someone is seriously anti-Zionist that should look for a position besides Satmar.

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