March 27, 2011 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #756220
Derech~ I live with more than one, and know quite a few! B’H!!
we also know a few that lost the good fight… completely, R’L. :((March 27, 2011 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #756221
Can I mention now that the first time I saw this thread title I thought it was talking about me?
lol, Popa~ me, too.
ummm….me 3. 🙂March 27, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #756222
oh, eclipse, i just got the poppa “bear”.
lol! sorry, but you are quite funny, even when you meant to be quite serious. i guess this is what they mean by “operation humor”.March 27, 2011 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #756223tomim tihyeMember
No way, eclipse, no sarcasm at all. I’ve been reading a very growth-oriented attitude in your posts, and it inspires me.
I meant that you sound like you take responsibility for your own happiness and don’t blame everyone around you for “making me miserable.”March 27, 2011 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #756224
Eclipse – You didn’t respond to my post. I’ll reiterate -OTD has nothing to do with bad/dangerous behavior, that should NOT be tolerated.March 27, 2011 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #756225aries2756Participant
Eclipse, I know that I don’t have to spell it out for you, YOU have a support system here. You can whine to us and blow off steam and ask for advice if you need to. We are here for you. You are going to ride the waves for a while so get yourself a surfboard you will need something to hang on to. But I guess we will do just as well if not better.
Take a deep breath and take it one day at a time, things can change on a dime and you have to be aware of the changes good and bad. If possible allow her friends to come over so you get to know them and so she doesn’t feel you are rejecting her or them. If they are by you then you know where they are. If you start talking to the boys and gain their respect they might have more respect for your daughter as well. If you are the good listener and the adult with the large shoulders and open heart, you might help more than just your own child. It is going to take some time and lots of baby steps. She didn’t go OTD overnight and she isn’t about to turn around overnight and she probably won’t trust you overnight either. So just hang in there and don’t give up. (just saying, I know you won’t).March 27, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #756226
TOMIM,whew!Thanks,I do try.
Health,I read it…but didn’t know what to say.March 27, 2011 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #756227
Aries and everyone…believe it or not I was actually able to deal with my daughter patiently today because I got support– just as I was running out of it!
And you can’t imagine how annoying I make it for myself…unplug computer,put it away,take it out again…but I think it was worth it today.March 27, 2011 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #756228
yay! good going! fantastic!!!!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 :), etc.
tons of smiles for you.
thanks for sharing that with us.March 27, 2011 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #756229
Eclipse – You have to figure out a way to stop her bad behavior immediately. The OTD behavior will take time (possibly years). You can ask advice from a therapist or a mentor. I would (if it was my kid -who had bad behavior along with the OTD) immediately challenge her -Where are you going? With whom are you going? Probably way before that time -I’d tell her to go to sleep.
I just have the OTD kids, not the problematic behavior kids.
I don’t understand why most people in the frum community automatically assume if your kid(s) are OTD, they must be doing bad things, eg. drugs, etc. Maybe these people are just ignorant.
Just think to yourself, not from a religious perspective, how would an upstanding Goyishe mother deal with this kind of behavior! Mentchlichkeit and Yiddishkeit aren’t synonymous. There are frei people with Mentchlichkeit and there are frum people without Mentchlichkeit!March 27, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #756231
Health~ “immediately challenge her -Where are you going? With whom are you going? Probably way before that time -I’d tell her to go to sleep.”
you’d be saying this before, or as, they’re jumping outta the 2nd floor window to leave the house?
“I don’t understand why most people in the frum community automatically assume if your kid(s) are OTD, they must be doing bad things, eg. drugs, etc.”
most people aren’t assuming it… they know it!
” Maybe these people are just ignorant.” I’m extremely insulted by this comment!! :/March 27, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #756232MindOverChatterParticipant
eclipse: I am moved by your strong and stable character. What you’re going through is gehinnom. It’s probably the worst parents can go through with their child. B”H, I never went through anything similar to that. I do have an ex-friend though who is going through something similar. (As a side note, the reason I dropped him was because it was spiraling out of my control and I had to leave go. A friend is not a daughter and it wasn’t totally my responsiblity to see that he come back.) I do know that they tend to blame everything on the parents, rebbeim, neighbors… Anyone but them. They are sure that they have a right to act in this manner because they were “terribly mistreated”. Now, happens to be, my friend did suffer a lot at home.; abusive mother etc..Nevertheless, he ruined HIS life because “it’s their fault”. Really, I think going OTD is somewhat of a mental illness (it is usually triggered by emotional stress/disorder). Think of her as a sick child. She is pretty much incapable of loving you because at this point, she hates herself! She needs your care and love. AND she needs your discipline. It’s YOUR home and you have every right to stick to your rules. I read a about a mother who’s son went OTD. One day, he demanded a TV (which was totally unacceptable in their home). She refused. He threatened that he’ll leave his home. She went out and bought a new linen set, lamp, curtains etc. and fixed up his room. She put a note on his pillow, “To my dear son: I’m sorry I cannot give you what you asked for. But please, please stay with me! I want you to live with us. Love, Mommy.” He never mentioned the TV again, and B”H is now frum.
May Hashem give you the Koach to deal with it, and may your daughter as well as all OTDers come back to their roots.March 27, 2011 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #756233
PBA – You just proved my last point.March 27, 2011 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #756234March 27, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #756235
Always – I don’t know why your kids went off, but her situation isn’t the same as yours.
Why would you be insulted? Why would you have any guilt? -I was in no way refering to you!
“most people aren’t assuming it… they know it!”
I wasn’t talking about the parents. I know exactly what my children do. I was talking about what the preception of the world is.March 27, 2011 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #756236myusernameMember
1) “I was actually able to deal with my daughter patiently today because I got support-“
That is wonderful! Anything you can do to keep your cool is worth tons, both for yourself and for success in this challenge. Going for regular walks, alone or with a friend, is very helpful. Walking with someone you can discuss this with — or even someone you wouldn’t discuss this with, is calming on the nerves. Take up some hobby, like sewing or needlepoint or puzzles – something to do when you’re up in the middle of the night and can’t sleep.
2) Whatever you can do to sleep through the night — arrange somehow that you don’t wake up when she leaves (earplugs?) — you need your strength to deal with this. All the extra worrying is unproductive.
3) Whatever you can do to build relationship, confidence, etc., is TOTAL MITZVAH, despite what may seem. Things that for ordinary people are wrong, are right for exceptional cases. I’m not saying halachically, just practically. If an ordinary kid should never be allowed to get away with something, a kid with a fragile mind might be different. Here too, what might ordinarily be a terrible thing – to support someone doing wrong things – in this case might be completely the best possible thing you can do for her, because it will anchor her and one day bring her back.
4) Seek help from professional kiruv people to find out what makes her tick — they’ll know from experience how to get through. Even just to develop a relationship and maintain it, regardless of kiruv itself, it’s important to know practically what she’ll respond positively to. They’ll know.
5) Even on-the-derech children usually (at one stage) do not want to be seen with their parents. All the more so here. So if she might be willing to spend some time with you, it would have to be somewhere she’s in no danger of being seen. If you can communicate to her that you recognize that and respect it, you gain points. Time spent together should be on building a relationship, not a single bit of tension or conflict.
6) Maybe somewhere that her friends would never even go – a Shakespeare playhouse? Choose a comedy (the kind they never study in schools) – I remember seeing Measure per Measure (I think) and it was really funny. Arrange to enter the playhouse at different times, etc., so that no one will see (see point 4) but you’ll sit together. Maybe something like that.
7) Even if she shows no response to your offers of love, deep down she’ll remember them. Show you care not just for her physical health, but also about her feelings. Show respect for what matters to her (not easy!), and she’ll respond to that. Offers of help for things that she feels she needs, may go far. I really don’t know what would work, only one very common denominator comes to mind, which may be ridiculous for a variety of reasons, but “if you’re going out tonight, there’s cash in my pocketbook – take all you need”? Feel free to reject/modify this suggestion!March 27, 2011 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #756238frumeyidParticipant
Please hang in there. We’re all rooting for you. Every single one of us. Try to get through one day at a time…
And please, please, don’t forget to daven. Talk to Hashem. Cry to him. You may not feel like it, and you may feel like it’s not helping, but it’s truly the thing that works best…March 27, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #756239Pashuteh YidMember
PBA, I really think your comment to ignore Health’s post was hurtful to him. I think you should apologize.March 27, 2011 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #756240
health: I am sorry I wrote what I did in such a mean way.
However, I think it is very important that eclipse not follow your advice, and not to even see it as possibly correct.March 27, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #756241
myusername~ “if you’re going out tonight, there’s cash in my pocketbook – take all you need”?
I respectfully, strongly disagree with this piece of advice, for (hopefully) obvious reasons. it’s one thing to make sure the child has a metro card, a cell, & a bit of money.. but I strongly advise against ‘take all you need’.. that could really be enabling bad behavior/action. you can’t be too hefker, altho’ I do agree with the unusual, irregular actions a parent has to go along with so as not to lose the connection w/ their child. …jmhoMarch 27, 2011 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #756242
Health–I know what you mean,but in this case it was the extreme lack of supervision and the total absence of compromise that sent them to the Avenue scenes in the first place.So the OTD went hand-in-hand with the crazy hours,hookah bars and the OTD boys.Get the scenario?Boruch Hashem,they knew better than to get involved with the heavy drug scene,because as I said before,we have a dear relative who got messed up by that and they saw it.March 27, 2011 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #756243
By the way,I had no idea what a hookah bar was until a few years ago…I still can’t stand the whole idea.They should close them all down wherever they are!March 27, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #756244myusernameMember
always here: you’re right. I had that partly in mind with my “variety of reasons”.
Of course you can control, in advance, how much $ is in your pocketbook!
But maybe direct handing over of $ is a better idea anyway (in a kavod-dik manner). But she may not want to take it – maybe leaving it in an envelope in her room with a note, is better.March 27, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #756245
Mind Over Chatter–emotionally connected it is!March 27, 2011 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #756246
myusername~ jmo, but I don’t think it’s a good idea, AT ALL, to encourage your child to go into your purse. … & trust me, they’ll have no problem, AT ALL, accepting $$ from you!March 27, 2011 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #756247kapustaParticipant
I’m not really posting but eclipse, I just wanted to tell you I kept both you and your daughter in mind in my davening earlier and I do know that no tefilla is ever wasted.
I am looking forward to (IY”H soon!!) your letting us know that she is doing better.
Hatzlacha rabbahMarch 27, 2011 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #756248GrandmasterMember
Over 2 years ago a poster posted in the Coffee Room about her child being otd, and not too long thereafter her child came to the coffee room to answer her here.March 27, 2011 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #756249
Kapusta…you are not going to believe this ,but your tefilos must have gone straight to Shomayim,together with my own daughter’s tears for herself.She had such a yeshuah today…I could cry from joy.
I hope her sincere inspiration and very specific plans are successful,and she is grateful and relieved that I am behind her all the way.
THANK YOU,HASHEM!!March 27, 2011 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #756250chayav inish livisumayParticipant
eclipse i really think thatr you should ask a rav andspeak to proffesionals in this area but what i would say is that you should allow her to stay at home but you need to set down rules such as
no chillul shabbos at home (if thats too hard then at least not in front of other kids)
no bad language
outside the house she can be who she is
eclipse keep it upMarch 27, 2011 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #756251
Over 2 years ago a poster posted in the Coffee Room about her child being otd, and not too long thereafter her child came to the coffee room to answer her here.
Cool. I just saw that for the first time.
Still, it seems contrived to me. The “daughter” was the first response, and then later was the immediately next response the next time the “mother” posted.
I didn’t read the whole thread. Is my theory confirmed?March 28, 2011 12:08 am at 12:08 am #756252
popa_~ “Cool. I just saw that for the first time. Still, it seems contrived to me.” … I agree w/ you.March 28, 2011 12:18 am at 12:18 am #756253GrandmasterMember
popa: I remember the thread from when it was live (which is how I found it now), and I participated in it. The OP is a long time poster from the beginning of the CR 2.5 years ago (and before that on the main page), and has posted as recently as 5 months ago. She always came across as sincere. Also, I seem to recall the OP remained unaswered for a bit until her daughter responded. The daughter continued posting for a number of months after that.March 28, 2011 12:21 am at 12:21 am #756254UnderstandMember
Eclipse, Stay strong. My parents had 2 kids go OTD, at two different times. Both came back to some degree. One more than before and one less than the family standards. But there is lots of strength needed to go thru the ordeal. Seems you are doing it alone, so we will keep you in our toughts and prayers. Keep being strong and vent here on the CR not to your daughter. Good luck and get a good nights sleep.March 28, 2011 12:31 am at 12:31 am #756255smartcookieMember
Eclipse- I’m so happy to read the hope in your words!
May Hashem help you further.March 28, 2011 12:34 am at 12:34 am #756256bbubbeeParticipant
May you see many more Yeshuos. Much Hatzlacha. We are all here supporting you. Keep smiling. 🙂March 28, 2011 12:39 am at 12:39 am #756257
Chayav,she is staying here for now,and your advice is very practical,thanks.
Understand…vent to her? What do you mean?March 28, 2011 12:44 am at 12:44 am #756258
bbubee and smart…here’s another one for you:
He told them all to call her Mommy.Fine.It just hurts when my 3rd daughter(still with him) tells me innocently what “mommy” said or thinks.I may as well get used to it…but by her it hurts the most.She totally doesn’t mean to hurt me,I’m sure,but…ouch.:(March 28, 2011 12:46 am at 12:46 am #756259
Incidentally,the youngest daughter (who has always lived with me) is close to me,b”h.March 28, 2011 2:50 am at 2:50 am #756260
It seems to me, as soon as he gets married, they all will be coming to live with you. A lot of times the new wife doesn’t want to be bothered with his kids. Them calling her mommy is just a title, nothing to get worked up about. Also, didn’t you once post that they call you Eema, so it’s not even confusing to them.
Be prepared to show all the ones who come to live with you an extreme amount of love, but this doesn’t preclude setting down some ground rules!March 28, 2011 2:51 am at 2:51 am #756261smartcookieMember
Eclipse- oh my! You could Plotz….
She is so innocent and clueless how she’s hurting you with those words…March 28, 2011 2:57 am at 2:57 am #756262UnderstandMember
Sorry eclipse, I meant to vent here so you shouldn’t take your anger/frustration out at her and yell at her, etc. Eventhough from your posting it seems you are quite strong. Keep up the good work. Keep smiling.March 28, 2011 4:21 am at 4:21 am #756263☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I have no advice for you other than keep loving her and keep davening. May the yeshuah be complete!
popa: I remember the thread from when it was live…and I participated in it.
Funny, I didn’t notice a poster named Grandmaster 😉March 28, 2011 5:09 am at 5:09 am #756264MDGParticipant
It’s hard for me to express my sorrow to hear of your difficult situation. But as you know already, you have many people rooting for you.
Let me preface my following remarks by saying that I don’t have much knowledge besides what I have heard in shiurim.
I want to suggest a few ways to get your daughter to connect with you. The first one, which has been mentioned above, I heard in the name of Rav Yehuda Addes. Buy the child little presents to show you care. Do so every day. Although, with a teenager, that may be just a first small step.
I think that with a teenager, who is coming into adulthood, she wants to be respected as an adult. At that rate, ask her for her opinion of things and carry out what she suggests. Set the situation so that the outcome is acceptable to you. For example, go clothes shopping with her and have her pick out something for you. Maybe pick out several garments and let her decide which one you will buy and wear.
Also, try to get interested in the things that she does, which shows interest in her- making her feel loved and respected.
From what you describe, she feels neglected and unloved, so she is looking for love in all the wrong places. She does not trust her parents, nor is she convinced that they love her.
Another thought is that you should have you older daughter try to befriend/mekarev her. She can relate better as she has been there, and your younger daughter may trust her more (or mistrust her less).
I heard a shiur recently from R’ Yaakov Yagen who has dealt with OTD kids. He said that one theme he has seen with OTD kids is that if you ask them when was the last time their father played sports with them or mother played a board game with them (or whatever recreation people do now) the OTD kid will usually say never or I can’t remember.
I know I’m kinda rambling… Hashem Yaazor … May you and your daughter sleep well tonight and every night peacefully at home.March 28, 2011 8:17 am at 8:17 am #756265
eclipse – sounds like you and your daughter are doing a great job.
is there someplace for your daughter to get support from others who’ve successfully returned?
may your daughter and all of klal yisraoel continue to grow and only see yeshuos!March 28, 2011 11:36 am at 11:36 am #756266
Thank you everyone…for the chizuk and good advice.March 28, 2011 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #756267SJSinNYCMember
Please find a support system outside of the internet. You need people who can be there for you in your life.
Also, google imamother – its a frum woman’s website and there are (unfortunately) plenty of women on there who can help you. Its much less moderated then here and you can send private messages so you can probably get even better advice.
Just sending some hugs.March 28, 2011 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #756268gavra_at_workParticipant
I don’t think anyone else posted this, if they did I apologize.
Please realize that OTD is not a line in the sand, saying Abandon all hope, ye who enter here . The schar of doing a single Mitzva is impossible for us to fathom, and you should encourage your children in all ways possible to do even a single mitzva if they are not at the level of doing all of them. For example, if your daughter is by you and you convince her to join you in shul on Rosh Hashana, she will hear shofar! What a Zechus! Even if she just lives with you in your home and does nothing else , she is mekayem the mitzva of Ner Chanuka when you light them!
Besides (even without the Jewish angle), what is her other option? Living in the street? With a “friend”? As a mother, do you want that for your daughter?
Of course not.March 28, 2011 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #756269
sjs…I’m a drop insulted…I do have a support system outside of the internet!!
gavra…I’m with you!March 28, 2011 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #756270SJSinNYCMember
I didn’t mean to insult you. I just meant that venting here (and even getting advice) is very limited.March 28, 2011 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #756271HAKOL TOVMember
just wanted to let you know that i have been part of the cr for a while but never actually opened an account.
well i just did for the simple reason of letting you know how you have inspired me!
i am sure that it is in your zechus that moshiach will come fast!!
and may u have a bundle of yeshuos soon!!
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