July 7, 2011 5:17 am at 5:17 am #597834
Is it a lack of bitachon to live within a budget, and to have (almsot) every penny figured out?July 7, 2011 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #784087get a lifeMember
In short no they do not contridict each other.
A person cannot say he has bitachon and then go and spend money on whatever they want. in fact i would imagine that most people with REAL bitachon live very simple lives and calculate their money wisely.
The chovat halavavot in ??? ?????? ??? ? speaks about the differences between the person who has bitachon and works for his parnassa to the person who works and does not have bitachon. It is worth reading. It would apply to living by a budget as well.July 7, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #784088WolfishMusingsParticipant
I’m confused. Why would you (or anyone) think that acting responsibly regarding spending might indicate a lack of bitachon?
The WolfJuly 7, 2011 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #784089ummMember
Oh! and I thought this would give tips on how to stay within your budget! 🙁July 7, 2011 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #784090
Wolf – Thats exactly the question, does bitachon tell you not to have a budget?July 7, 2011 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #784091adorableParticipant
no thats called being irresponsible. Bitachon means buying what you need and being reasonable and responsible but knowing that things will come up and you wont know how you’re going to be paying for them, but thats where bitachon comes in. Just my opinion. very humble opinionJuly 7, 2011 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #784092zaidy78Participant
living within a budget?? Impossible.July 7, 2011 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #784093WolfishMusingsParticipant
Wolf – Thats exactly the question, does bitachon tell you not to have a budget?
But what is it about setting a budget that might indicate a lack of bitachon?
You didn’t ask about tying one’s shoelaces, or drinking Sprite or purchasing a lock for your steering column. What is it about budgeting, in particular, that would lead you to think that there might be some lack of bitachon on the part of those doing it?
The WolfJuly 7, 2011 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #784094rebbi1Participant
I think living within a budget is our way of doing the histadlus that we need to do. Living within a budget also shows self control. Maybe the problem was saving money? Is that a lack of bitachon?July 8, 2011 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #784095
That is foolish and looking for an excuse to be irresponsible.
Do you know the hebrew word for “insurance”? That is also “bitachon”. Think about that for a second. If you want to insure that you are responsible and doing the right thing, and not have to depend on others, or making a chilul Hahsem. Make a budget and live within your means. Don’t expect Hashem to rain money down on your head.July 8, 2011 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #784096ItcheSrulikMember
No, and saying that it is sounds like an excuse for irresponsibility.July 8, 2011 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #784097☕️coffee addictParticipant
bitachon has to be complimented with hishtadlus the reason Yosef was punished was because he asked twiceJuly 8, 2011 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #784098Derech HaMelechMember
I think you have to know your madreigah.
If you have true bitachon that you’ll have the money for whatever you need, then I would say that is enough. But I think that’s a very high level of Bitachon and most people would instead convince themselves that they have bitachon rather than actually having it.
I don’t think that there is any reason to connect the Hebrew word “bitachon” and the loshon hakodesh word “bitachon”. But that being said, when I got married and needed to get insurance, my Rebbe didn’t tell me to get the best that I could afford, just a basic regular insurance.
When it comes to Bitachon, there’s no “one size fits all”. Everyone needs to dicuss with their Rov the level of bitachon that they have and how much of an impact that bitachon should have on their cheshbonos.July 8, 2011 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #784099☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Is it a lack of bitachon to live within a budget, and to have (almsot) every penny figured out?
No, but if taken to an extreme it might be emotionally unhealthy.July 8, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #784100menachem__Participant
Bitachon is security.
Bituach is insurance.July 8, 2011 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #784101
Thank you menachem. But it all comes from the same “shoresh” doesn’t it? And all connected?
Now maybe I should say, if you want the “security” of living appropriately and not making a chilul Hashem, and not adding extra stress to your lives, then live with a budget and within your means and don’t count on Hashem raining money down on yours heads.July 8, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #784102
Let me ask my question better. When someone makes a budget, its because he is under the impression that he will recive X amount of dollars a year. Now why shouldn’t he have bitachon that he will recive what he needs, and not live with a budget? (Yes, he might not see it on paper, but he should have emunah and bitachon that hashem will give him wha he needs}July 8, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #784103charliehallParticipant
“Is it a lack of bitachon to live within a budget, and to have (almsot) every penny figured out?”
No. While everything belongs to HaShem, we have no idea how much He will allocate to us in any particular period of time. (Unless, of course, we are prophets, and there hasn’t been one for a very long time.) Therefore, NOT to live within a budget is wasting HaShem’s precious resources.July 9, 2011 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #784104m in IsraelMember
real-brisker — There is nothing in bitachon that I know of that says Hashem will give you enough money to buy whatever you want whenever you want it. In fact Bitachon davka means that you trust that Hashem knows what He is doing and will give you what is right for you — but not necessarily what you think you need, and certainly not everything you want. So to spend money without cheshbon does not seem to connect to bitachon in any way in my mind — if anything Bitachon would seem to imply that if Hashem hasn’t given me the money for a specific item, obviously I am not intended to have it.
The only thing I can see as possibly fitting into a bitachon issue is how far ahead you are planning, and your attitude with regard to that planning. Meaning I can perhaps hear that planning too long term in the future may reflect a lack of bitachon in the fact that Hashem can turn things about at any moment of time, and we should not think that our planning is what ensures a financially secure future. So perhaps someone on a very high level of bitachon who therefore requires less hishtadlus may be exempt from the hishtadlus of saving long term (consult with your Rav if you think that you are on that madreiga), but that is a completely different concept then just spending money and assuming Hashem will give you it because you think you “need” it.July 10, 2011 2:50 am at 2:50 am #784105
So if I am understanding M in Israel, I would say that you should go along with the principle that “this is what Hashem is giving me, therefore I must budget myself according to this amount”.July 10, 2011 4:53 am at 4:53 am #784106
m in israel – Why is one under the assumption that they are only getting X amount of dollars? Because that is what his human boss decided!?! I think that is a lack of bitachon.July 10, 2011 5:05 am at 5:05 am #784107
“Is it a lack of bitachon to live within a budget, and to have (almost) every penny figured out?”
Would you say that standing in the middle of a busy highway shows bitachon?July 10, 2011 5:17 am at 5:17 am #784108
ayc – Bitachon doesn’t mean to rely on a neis.July 10, 2011 5:28 am at 5:28 am #784109
precisely my pointJuly 10, 2011 5:44 am at 5:44 am #784110
ayc – I disagree, refer to my last post. Why are you more confident that a basar v’dam said you will earn X amount of dollars per year, more than what hashem will give you?July 10, 2011 5:52 am at 5:52 am #784111☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
If you have a job which pats $40,000 a year, and your budget is to spend $50,000, you’re relying on a nes.July 10, 2011 5:56 am at 5:56 am #784112
“Why are you more confident that a basar v’dam said you will earn X amount of dollars per year, more than what hashem will give you?”
The basar vadam is Hashem’s shaliachJuly 10, 2011 8:00 am at 8:00 am #784113m in IsraelMember
aries — That is exactly what I am saying — you summed it up in one sentence.
real-brisker — Budgeting does not mean you are assuming nothing will change, and it doesn’t have to mean planning all your expenditures for the year. Some people budget monthly or even weekly. The idea of budgeting is that you live within your means by planning and keeping track of your spending. If Hashem gives you more you can then spend more — but to spend it in advance with the excuse that “Hashem will provide whatever I choose to spend” seems like bizarre reasoning to me.
Perhaps what is bothering you is the second part of your question “have almost every penny figured out”. Thinking that you have figured everything out does seem to indicate some lack of bitachon. I don’t think most responsible spenders believe they have “almost every penny figured out”. There are always unexpected expenses that come up, and there also may often be unexpected money received. If someone has a real unexpected need come up (medical treatment for example), there certainly is the concept of bitachon that you do what you can and trust that Hashem runs the world and whatever is happening is meant to be. If you are meant to loose all your money, all the responsible planning in the world won’t change it, and if you are meant to be rich the fact that you currently work at a $20,000 a year job won’t prevent it. That still does not give you the right to spend money you don’t have!
Again I’m not sure where budgeting sends the message that you believe the money is coming from a Basar V’Dam rather than Hashem. If you are uncomfortable budgeting in advance, work backwards — only spend money Hashem has already given you. So plan next month’s expenditures based on what you made this month, and if Hashem provides you with more next month, you can increase your budget for the month afterwards.
Would you say a person should just go out and buy the most expensive home on the market, and have bitachon that Hashem will give him the money to pay off the mortgage, even though there is no al pi derech hatevah way to get it? If anything I would say spending less or more cautiously is more indicative of bitachon, as you recognize that even though you have a current salary of “x” dollars, it is not in your control if that will continue, so how can you commit to payments in the future? No matter how good a moneymaker you think you are, Hashem is ultimately in charge of how much money you make. (I’m not saying that is correct, I’m just trying to logically follow your train of thought.)
From a mussar perspective it would seem lack of bitachon is more associated with having plenty and feeling that it is to your credit (“v’ram livavecha veshachachta as Hashem”), rather than not believing Hashem can give you more.July 10, 2011 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #784114
RB, just because you are on a budget does not mean you can’t go out and make more money. That is your option and that is your choice. And if you don’t like the amount you are making Hashem is NOT stopping you from looking for a better job. Adaraba, Hashem offers you many opportunities it is YOUR job and obligation to go out and look for them, HE is not going to deliver them to your door. It is up to you you to do the histadlus to find all the good that Hashem has waiting for you and all the opportunities. It is you who can choose to accept being in a box and saying “this is all that Hashem wants me to have” OR “Is this all that Hashem wants me to have?”
But either way, whether you are making $50,000 or $100,000, it is always good to live with a budget and stay within your means.July 10, 2011 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #784115
Thank you everyoe.July 10, 2011 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #784116walton157Member
We have to have bitachon that HaShem will provide us with what we need.
Everyone has a different standard of living and quality of life. It just so happens that I don’t need the yacht that is selling for $5,000,000. But I do need the $10.00 MetroCard to get me work and back. Yes, we must work and make the effort to have parnassah.
I’m not judging the Trumps, Hiltons, etc. They have their parnassah and live within their means and we have ours.
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