May 11, 2016 12:07 am at 12:07 am #617697M.ChouchaniMember
Nusach Ashkenaz is to say l’mashumadim although I have seen most artscroll siddurim have it as l’malanshinim. Is tjis the polish nusach? Is the litvish nusach to say it or l’mashumadim?May 11, 2016 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1151620WolfishMusingsParticipant
Nusach Ashkenaz is to say l’mashumadim
I don’t claim to be an expert on the textual variations in davening, but I have to say that, as a lifelong davener of Nusach Ashkenaz, I’ve *never* heard of this nusach.
(Note: I’m not disputing the existence of the nusach, just giving my oberservation.)
The WolfMay 11, 2016 12:51 am at 12:51 am #1151621Sam2Participant
Are you referring to the fact that the actual first word of the Bracha is “LaMinim”?May 11, 2016 1:53 am at 1:53 am #1151622M.ChouchaniMember
Wolfish when I say Ashkenaz I mean Frankfurt, sorry for the confusion. I consider Artscroll nusach Nusach Polin… anyway our siddur is here link removed
Sam2 Possibly. I have a siddur kol yaakov and it uses the nusach lmalanshinim so I used that off hand.May 12, 2016 9:17 am at 9:17 am #1151623old manParticipant
The first (relatively) comprehensive arrangement of the tefillot, what we now call a siddur, was compiled by Rav Amram Gaon in Bavel a bit less than 1200 years ago. The nusach there is v’lameshumadim, and hence, it is difficult to call this nusach Ashkenazi in any way, whether it be Poland or German. So too in the siddur of Rav Sa’adyah Gaon. However, in the Sefardic (Spain, not Iraq) transcription of Siddur Rav Amram, it is already v’lamalshinim.
According to some scholars, these two words were once considered synonymous and both versions, as well as others, like v’laminim etc… were found in different siddurim, both Ashkenazic and Sefardic. Of course, as The Wolf pointed out, no standard ashkenazic siddur has v’lameshumadim anymore.May 12, 2016 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1151624tiawdParticipant
The nusach found in the vast majority of modern-day Ashkenaz and Sefard siddurim is v’lamalshinim. (I don’t know about the nusach of the Sefardim.) It seems that the original, pre-censor nusach was v’lam’shumadim. Check the Siddur Vilna, Siddur Eizor Eliyahu, and R’Hamburger’s Yekkish siddur.
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