L'mashumadim vs l'malanshinim

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  • #617697

    M.Chouchani
    Member

    Nusach Ashkenaz is to say l’mashumadim although I have seen most artscroll siddurim have it as l’malanshinim. Is tjis the polish nusach? Is the litvish nusach to say it or l’mashumadim?

    #1151620

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Nusach Ashkenaz is to say l’mashumadim

    I don’t claim to be an expert on the textual variations in davening, but I have to say that, as a lifelong davener of Nusach Ashkenaz, I’ve *never* heard of this nusach.

    (Note: I’m not disputing the existence of the nusach, just giving my oberservation.)

    The Wolf

    #1151621

    Sam2
    Participant

    Are you referring to the fact that the actual first word of the Bracha is “LaMinim”?

    #1151622

    M.Chouchani
    Member

    Wolfish when I say Ashkenaz I mean Frankfurt, sorry for the confusion. I consider Artscroll nusach Nusach Polin… anyway our siddur is here link removed

    Sam2 Possibly. I have a siddur kol yaakov and it uses the nusach lmalanshinim so I used that off hand.

    #1151623

    old man
    Participant

    The first (relatively) comprehensive arrangement of the tefillot, what we now call a siddur, was compiled by Rav Amram Gaon in Bavel a bit less than 1200 years ago. The nusach there is v’lameshumadim, and hence, it is difficult to call this nusach Ashkenazi in any way, whether it be Poland or German. So too in the siddur of Rav Sa’adyah Gaon. However, in the Sefardic (Spain, not Iraq) transcription of Siddur Rav Amram, it is already v’lamalshinim.

    According to some scholars, these two words were once considered synonymous and both versions, as well as others, like v’laminim etc… were found in different siddurim, both Ashkenazic and Sefardic. Of course, as The Wolf pointed out, no standard ashkenazic siddur has v’lameshumadim anymore.

    #1151624

    tiawd
    Participant

    The nusach found in the vast majority of modern-day Ashkenaz and Sefard siddurim is v’lamalshinim. (I don’t know about the nusach of the Sefardim.) It seems that the original, pre-censor nusach was v’lam’shumadim. Check the Siddur Vilna, Siddur Eizor Eliyahu, and R’Hamburger’s Yekkish siddur.

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