Lo Tzais Dina

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  • #609689

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I know someone who felt he was wronged by a Rav. He went to beis din, and the Rav was summoned to a din Torah. The Rav refused to go. The beis din declared the Rav to be a lo tzais dina. Does that give any special status (not in a good way) to the Rav involved? Is there an automatic cherem in such a case?

    #959389

    nitpicker
    Participant

    and certainly this too should be open to discussion in public!

    besides you are asking the coffee room to serve as the surrogate bais din to judge this rav and if he should be respected or sanctioned instead!

    Now that we have the CR we should do away with batai din altogether!

    #959390

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Have you seem the Beis din’s proclamation?

    Without it I don’t know what you are relying on. If you have, I am sure there is a phone number on the letterhead, call them up.

    Why do you ask here?

    #959391

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    …and can we stop him from being honored at the next dinner

    #959392

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    the “jump brigade” is up and running. Feif didn’t ask people if they agreed with the psak or if they felt that he should condemn the rabbi for it. It was a question that you could either take at face value or as hypothetical. Either way, there are answers and there is no reason you can’t give one if you know it.

    #959393

    truthsharer
    Member

    On the flip side, who gave that Beis Din jurisdiction? I can go to my local corrupt Beis Din and have them issue a hazmanah against you. You can then go to your local corrupt beis din and issue a hazmanah against me.

    Refusing to go to a beis din is not in and of itself wrong. Did he also refuse to go to any beis din? I actually know of someone who was advised by his rav not to respond to a beis din hazmanah because the beis din is a known bribery-enforced beis din.

    #959394

    Feif Un
    Participant

    nishtdayngesheft: Yes, I have seen the proclamation from the Beis Din.

    truthsharer: The Beis Din was headed by a very respected Rav. Let’s say it was someone on the level of R’ Moshe Feinstein zt”l, or R’ Aharon Kotler zt”l – what would you say then?

    #959396

    Feif Un
    Participant

    What if I’m the gabbai at a minyan, and this Rav comes in? Can I count him for the minyan? Can he get an aliya? If there’s a cherem, he can’t be.

    #959397

    shikron
    Member

    No, there is no cherem or any automatic status since a talmid chochom (or yeshiva) have special rights regarding being called to beis din. Halacha affords them the right, under certain circumstances, to not recognize or stand before the beis din.

    #959398

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Fei,

    If you have seen then you have a phone number to contact.

    What’s the issue?

    #959399

    truthsharer
    Member

    He can say that they still have no jurisdiction. It’s not a city Beis Din, it’s not a beis din that the people of the city decided to be the beis din for that city.

    They can issues hazmanos all they want but he can say let’s go to a different beis din. Most batei din will allow that and only issue a seiruv if the person did not respond at all. I don’t know what happened in this case, if the person totally ignored the hazmanah or just said he wants to go to a different beis din.

    #959400

    Feif Un
    Participant

    shikron: So if R’ Moshe Feinstein called someone to a din Torah, they’re going to argue and say they have special rights? They’re really going to argue halacha with R’ Moshe?

    In this case, R’ Moshe zt”l actually was the av beis din. The status of lo tzais dina has been recognized in other botei din later as well.

    truthsharer: the Rav never tried to get it moved to another beis din. He ignored it. Other Rabbonim tried to get him to listen to R’ Moshe, but he refused.

    #959401

    truthsharer
    Member

    If you’re talking about a famous yeshivah, that yeshiva got smacked a few years ago when it took another yeshiva to beis din. That beis din asked sarcastically that “now you suddenly see the benefit of a beis din?”

    #959402

    nitpicker
    Participant

    to feif un

    but did the bais din actualy issue a siruv? if they did,

    you have no question here to ask. if they did not, you also have no question to ask here .

    also, you are obviously talking about something that happened a long time ago. things may have occurred since then to change the situation. no one here knows those details.

    if the bais din issued a siruv you must follow it. if they did not you must not issue one yourself!

    #959403

    YW Moderator-95
    Moderator

    This thread is too bizarre. If we can’t talk about it in open, we shouldn’t talk about it in code either. I’m going to close it soon.

    #959404

    nitpicker
    Participant

    to mod-95.

    yay! in that case

    you may remove my hanging post.

Viewing 16 posts - 1 through 16 (of 16 total)
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