Losing Olam HaBah vs. Guaranteed Olam HaBah

Home Forums Bais Medrash Losing Olam HaBah vs. Guaranteed Olam HaBah

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  • #598029

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    We’re all familiar with the idea that a suicide (when competent) loses his chelek in Olam HaBah. On the other hand, we’re told certain things for which one is “muvtach lo sheho ben olam HaBah.” Saying Ashrei three times a day is one of those things.

    So, if a person who says Ashrei three times a day commits suicide, what is the din? Does he have a chelek in Olam HaBah?

    #786728

    shlishi
    Member

    Why are you so into suicide? It’s one of your favorite topics you write of.

    #786729

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Considering the last thread I started on the topic was over two months ago and I started about ten non-suicide themed threads since then, I’d venture that your premise is mistaken.

    That being said, it’s just an example. There are other things one can do to lose one’s Olam HaBah too. Feel free to substitute one of those actions instead if you wish.

    The Wolf

    #786730

    shlishi
    Member

    2 months ago, 3 months ago, 7 months, over a year ago… it’s a constant theme of yours, even if not statistically the most numerous.

    #786731

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    2 months ago, 3 months ago, 7 months, over a year ago… it’s a constant theme of yours, even if not statistically the most numerous.

    I wouldn’t say that four times over the past year* is “constant,” especially when you also consider all the other threads I participate in.

    In any event, I don’t want to hijack this from my actual question of being guaranteed Olam HaBah and doing something to lose it.

    The Wolf

    * I’m accepting your count. I didn’t look beyond the most recent example.

    #786732

    real-brisker
    Member

    Wolf – You have to loose what you have, you can’t loose what you don’t have.

    #786733

    gefen
    Participant

    Wolf – so drop the conversation with shlishi so you can get back on your original topic.

    Interesting question – I don’t have an answer – but I’m waiting to hear what others have to say.

    #786734

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I don’t think “saying” it is the same as SAYING it

    if someone has complete 100% kavana by Ashrei where he’s actually praising being jewish he won’t want to commit suicide

    #786735

    Another name
    Participant

    I second coffee addict. It’s not just about doing it, it’s about doing it right.

    #786736

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Is it your contention then that someone who “properly” says Ashrei (however that’s defined) is immune from mental illness resulting in suicide?

    The Wolf

    #786737

    2qwerty
    Participant

    By committing suicide the person is giving up on a chance to say Ashrei the next day.

    #786738

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    wolfish,

    possibly (you can’t rule out that Hashem will protect him)

    #786739

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    possibly (you can’t rule out that Hashem will protect him)

    Are you then willing to say for certain that anyone who committed suicide did NOT say Ashrei three times a day?

    The Wolf

    #786740

    Another name
    Participant

    Of course not. But to be worthy of olam habah, it’s not as simple as saying ashrei 3 times a day.

    AND if it was mental illness, then you can’t necessarily blame the person for committing suicide, and I’m sure the person wouldn’t lose out entirely on olam habah.

    #786741

    bezalel
    Participant

    Is it your contention then that someone who “properly” says Ashrei (however that’s defined) is immune from mental illness resulting in suicide?

    I thought we were excluding cases of mental illness.

    #786742

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is it your contention then that someone who “properly” says Ashrei (however that’s defined) is immune from mental illness resulting in suicide?

    Your original premise (correctly) was that one only lose his share in O”H for committing suicide while mentally competent.

    #786743

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I thought we were excluding cases of mental illness.

    And

    Your original premise (correctly) was that one only lose his share in O”H for committing suicide while mentally competent.

    My apologies. You are correct. I somehow forgot that as we went along.

    The Wolf

    #786744

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Why are you so into suicide?

    Because it’s such a lively subject!

    #786745

    kapusta
    Participant

    This has bothered me in the past. Committing suicide is dependent on mental health, but what about “Hamalbin pnei chaveiro…”

    *kapusta*

    #786746

    2qwerty
    Participant

    Wolf, did you miss my post? Let me elaborate…

    If a person intentionally puts himself in a situation where he wouldn’t be able to say Ashrei 3 times a day would that be a good excuse? (But all other times he said it perfectly) Does he still get in or did he throw away his chance?

    #786747

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Are you then willing to say for certain that anyone who committed suicide did NOT say Ashrei three times a day?

    yes I’m saying he didn’t say it with 100% KAVANA

    #786748

    adorable
    Participant

    coffee- agree. dont know of big people who do the right thing and have their heads screwed on straight committing suicide.

    #786749

    alive and well
    Participant

    it says in gemara(since im i girl i dont know which one)that if aperson dies on friday night they go straight to gan eden

    so what happens if you commit suicide on friday night

    #786750

    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    Muvtach Lo shehu Ben O’HABOH’

    if memeory serves me correctly I remember ,b esides saying Ashrei, there is another deed a person would have to do as well as ashrei.

    I think its learning something specific from a certain Tanai….can someone please refresh?

    #786752

    mik5
    Participant

    Wolf,

    EXCELLENT, excellent question.

    Ultimately, in the time of Moschiach (may he come speedily in our days), every single Jew will have a share in the World to Come.

    As we learn in the Ethics of our Fathers,

    All Israel has a share in the World to Come, as is stated: “And your people are all righteous; they shall inherit the land forever. They are the shoot of My planting, the work of My hands, in which I take pride.”

    (Sanhedrin, 11:1)

    Also, you probably know about the suicide of Saul – which was justified, so it depends on the circumstances.

    #786753

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    alive and well,

    1) I’ve never heard of this gemara (that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist though)

    2) dying would probably mean of natural causes (I don’t think if a person went out partying on a Friday night and got drunk and got into a car accident and died that he would go straight to gan eden)

    #786754

    adorable
    Participant

    i dont think committing suicide= dying on friday night

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