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Neturei Karta?
Lev Tahor?
Mechalelei Shabbos B’farhesya?
PRIDE chevra?
The Hassidic fellow who blocks me in my driveway for 20 minutes and barely apologizes?
So confusing…Tuna is a fish?
toonaphish?
Toona has verylowiq?Great question. There are two, potentially three mitzvos that govern love and hate towards other Jews:
1) ואהבת לרעך כמוך. Now, notice how the wording is לרעך and not את רעך (as opposed to ואהבת את ה׳, ואהבתם את הגר, ויאהב יצחק את עשו, ורבקה אוהבת את יעקב, אהבתי אתכם אמר ה׳, etc.). This implies that one isn’t obligated to love a fellow Jew inwardly, as a man loves his best friend or his wife or his children or his siblings, etc. Rather, one is obligated to love him outwardly, i.e. speak positively about him, protect his property, strive to ensure sure he is afforded respect, visit him when he is ill, comfort him when he is grieving, escort him, take care of his burial needs, and eulogize him when he dies, carry his burden, lead him when he can’t lead himself, gladden him and provide for him when he marries, etc. In a word, to do unto him as you would others to do for you. There are exceptions to this, which I will explain shortly.
2) לא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך. One may not hate a fellow Jew, even if it is only on the inside. There are exceptions to this, too as I will discuss shortly.
3) ואהבתם את הגר. One must inwardly love a גר. I don’t know if this has the same exceptions, but I’m יראה לי that it does.
The only exception is a Jew who DELIBERATELY defies the Torah, even AFTER PROPER REPROOF, and even though he KNOWS HE IS SINNING, and makes NO EFFORT TO IMPROVE.
Note: Reproof doesn’t mean yelling at him that he’s a shaygetz and a menuval. It means explaining to him in a caring, loving way, in private, that he is not on the right path, etc. בחבלי אדם אמשכם וכו׳.
Hence:
Neturei Karta – Yes, their views are insane, but they are still your fellow Jews, there is no evidence that they sin with defiance, and even if they do commit actual sins out of their perverted beliefs, for which I have no evidence, they are תינוקות שנשבו who have been mislead by others. You needn’t love any of them and be their best friend. But you cannot hate them, and you must treat them as you would want to be treated.
Lev Tahor – Same as NK. Their leaders, though, I’m not so sure. Depends on whether they fit the above exceptions.
מחללי שבת בפרהסיא – Definitely not a secular Jew from birth. But if he grew up religious, and you know that he does so defiantly after proper reproof, and he doesn’t wish to change, you can and must hate him and not display any concern for him.
PRIDE Chevra – Not sure what you mean. Is he actually flagrantly married to a man, etc. and has he been given proper reproof? Then I guess. But merely being proud of his orientation though doesn’t make him a רשע. Same as NK.
Hassidic car-blocker: We’ve all experienced this, but a one-time annoyance doesn’t exclude him from רעך and אחיך. Not everyone has the greatest מדות. If it upsets you though, you must tell him that he wronged you and that he should apologize and not do it again.
> car-blocker
toonaphish – do you live on my block?! Because I know him too! Shazsheri is surely jesting that it is a “one time annoyance”. Mine is doing it repeatedly with confidence – replying to an “am haaretz” who wants to drive out that this is “davening time”. I tried reproving him indirectly, such as visible avoiding shaking his hand publicly immediately after his rude behavior, hoping for Pavlovian effect, but this did not help. I find it beyond my capabilities to do a proper tochacha and cop out with the halocha that if you are not able to, you don’t have to.
anyone who doesn’t act like a jew, (i.e. believes the 13 ikkarim and keeps shabbos publicly) one is obligated to hate with utmost contempt, in your heart and externally. this has nothing to do with knowing what is in someone’s heart. this is the clear psak of the chofetz chaim. no issur of lashon hara, rather one is obligated to dan l’kaf chov and speak badly on them. there is no din aravus, there is no issur of ribis, they have a din of a goy.
this is the din of a heretic regardless of them also having the din of a “tinok sh’nishba”. Such a person does not have a portion in the next world.
there is still an obligation of basic chesed to such a heretic, and a lot of the dinim l’maaseh are questioned for various reasons by gedolai poskim. so, we are generally accustomed to take the chumra both ways, maybe they have the “din of a yid” maybe “din of a goy”. However, the hatred towards anyone who acts like a goy is deeply important. Such a person is not part of “klal yisroel”.
this is the din of a heretic regardless of them also having the din of a “tinok sh’nishba”. Such a person does not have a portion in the next world
Source that all this applies to a תינוק שנשבה?
@somejewiknow
I understand that you feel that your response should be the halacha and that you wish it was the halacha, but unfortunately it is the opposite of the halacha. I would humbly suggest that you supplement your בקיאות in the חפץ חיים with some basic knowledge of שלחן ערוך.Regarding your דברי שטות about “ribbis”:
The מחבר says the following. I quote: הקראים אין להם דין מומרים ואסור להלוותם ברבית ואין צריך לומר שאסור ללוות מהם ברבית
Bear in mind that the קראים are כופר in 2 of your “13 ikkarim” (see the רמב״ם in beginning of chelek היסוד הח׳ at the end and the whole יסוד ט׳ as well as הלכות תשובה פרק ג׳) as well as being מחללי שבת בפרהסיא.
The רמ״א continues:
תינוק שנשבה לבין העובדי כוכבים ואינו יודע מתורת ישראל כלל דינו כקראים ואסור להלוות לו ברבית (כך משמע מב”י לדעת הרמב”ם). ולכן מומרת לעבודת כוכבים שיש לה בן מן העובד כוכבים שהבן הרי הוא כמוה ונקרא מומר אסור להלוות לו ברבית (מרדכי פ’ החולץ) דהוי כתינוק שנשבה לבין העובדי כוכביםAs far as the rest of your הבל ורעות רוח, allow me to quote from the רמב״ם in a תשובה. First regarding the ״speaking badly about them” balderdash:
אלו הקראים השוכנים פה ראויים הם לחלקים
מחלקי הכבוד, להתקרב אצלם במעשה יושר ולהתנהג עימם במידת הענוה ובדרך האמת והשלום, כל זמן שגם הם ינהגו עמנו בתמימות ויסירו מהם עיקשות פה ולזות שפה מלדבר תועה על חכמי הרבנים שבדור, כל שכן שישמרו לשונם מהלעיג ומהתלוצץ בדברי רבותינו הקדושים התנאים חכמי משנה וחכמי תלמוד , שבדבריהם ובמנהגות הקבועות לנו מפי הם מפי משה מפי הגבורה אנו הולכים . ובזה נכון לנו לכבדם , וללכת לשאול בשלומם אפילו בבתיהם , ולמול בניהם ואפילו בשבת , ולקבור מתיהם ולנחם אבליהםAs to your “klal yisroel” “din of a goy” nonsense:
מאחר שנתפרסם שהוא כופר בתורה שבעל פה מורידין אותו ולא מעלין והרי הוא כשאר כל האפיקורוסין והאומרים אין תורה מן השמים והמוסרין והמומרין. שכל אלו אינם בכלל ישראל ואין צריך לא לעדים ולא התראה ולא דיינים אלא כל ההורג אחד מהן עשה מצוה גדולה והסיר המכשול
במה דברים אמורים באיש שכפר בתורה שבעל פה במחשבתו ובדברים שנראו לו והלך אחר דעתו הקלה ואחר שרירות לבו וכופר בתורה שבעל פה תחילה כצדוק ובייתוס וכן כל התועים אחריו אבל בני התועים האלה ובני בניהם שהדיחו אותם אבותם ונולדו בין הקראים וגדלו אותם על דעתם הרי הוא כתינוק שנשבה ביניהם וגדלוהו ואינו זריז לאחוז בדרכי המצות שהרי הוא כאנוס ואע”פ ששמע אח”כ שהוא יהודי וראה היהודים ודתם הרי הוא כאנוס שהרי גדלוהו על טעותם כך אלו שאמרנו האוחזים בדרכי אבותם הקראים שטעו לפיכך ראוי להחזירן בתשובה ולמשכם בדברי שלום עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורההרוצה לשקר ירחיק עדיו
רמב״ן on ואהבת לרעך כמוך
סמ״ג on מצות ואהבת לרעך כמוך
Big משמעות in רמב״ם הלכות אבל
I don’t see a disagreement between us. The “Karaim” as clearly described by the Gedolim you quoted are a very accurate description of what many call today’s “Modern Orthodox”, laymen that unintentionally misunderstand some fundamentals.
The clear “honesty, innocence, and deep respect for the real Gedolim” that the Rambam describes those mistaken “karoim” is s stark contrast to the last section of the Rambam you quote about kofrim, apikorsim, that aptly describe nearly all sell-proclaimed “Jewish” michallei shabbos bfarhesya today. That Rambam spell is out clearly, which is why I don’t see where we disagree.
If your point in bringing that last section is because of his point about “tinok sh’nishba”, I don’t understand why you omitted the last words of that Rambam that says regarding them “בתשובה ולמשכם בדברי שלום עד שיחזרו לאיתן התורה ולאימהר להרגן”. Being a “tinok sh’nishba” doesn’t change much, with many Gedolai poskim clear that a michalel shabbos b’farhesia specifically can never be considered a tinok sh’nishba, because it specifically is always a clear rejection of Yiddishkeit.
Beyond all there, there is some nuance, as I explicitly said, regarding the psak halacha for many of these practical halachos, like ribis and the like. For example, one contemporary stance in some poskim is that the classic “red line” of shabbos has become so blurred in modern time, R”L, that many Jews thinks breaking shabbos is “perfectly Jewish” because it is so normalized. As such, the psak is to be machmir on both sides.
However, none of this overrides the fundamental need for the Jewish heart to fully hate anyone who hates Hashem.
Equating Karaims to MO clearly comes from someone who met neither, but listened to some speaker.
Karaims were also different from individuals violating something: they were centuries-old communities that followed their tradition. Maybe modern Reform is a better comparison, as they follow generations of their leaders. I had once a reform person helping me out with a ride during the summer trying to make sure I’ll be at the destination by 5pm as he thought that shabbat starts 5pm sharp every week they way they celebrate at his temple – and he was intent that I don’t violate it. Glad we cleared it on the way, or he’d get a speeding ticket.
Also, are Karaims mehalel shabbos miduaraita? I picture them sitting in the dark, eating cold pizza without their wives. Weird, yes, but what malochos do they perform in the process?
Karaims are reshoyim.
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