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Neturei Karta?
Lev Tahor?
Mechalelei Shabbos B’farhesya?
PRIDE chevra?
The Hassidic fellow who blocks me in my driveway for 20 minutes and barely apologizes?
So confusing…Tuna is a fish?
toonaphish?
Toona has verylowiq?Great question. There are two, potentially three mitzvos that govern love and hate towards other Jews:
1) ????? ???? ????. Now, notice how the wording is ???? and not ?? ??? (as opposed to ????? ?? ??, ?????? ?? ???, ????? ???? ?? ???, ????? ????? ?? ????, ????? ???? ??? ??, etc.). This implies that one isn’t obligated to love a fellow Jew inwardly, as a man loves his best friend or his wife or his children or his siblings, etc. Rather, one is obligated to love him outwardly, i.e. speak positively about him, protect his property, strive to ensure sure he is afforded respect, visit him when he is ill, comfort him when he is grieving, escort him, take care of his burial needs, and eulogize him when he dies, carry his burden, lead him when he can’t lead himself, gladden him and provide for him when he marries, etc. In a word, to do unto him as you would others to do for you. There are exceptions to this, which I will explain shortly.
2) ?? ???? ?? ???? ?????. One may not hate a fellow Jew, even if it is only on the inside. There are exceptions to this, too as I will discuss shortly.
3) ?????? ?? ???. One must inwardly love a ??. I don’t know if this has the same exceptions, but I’m ???? ?? that it does.
The only exception is a Jew who DELIBERATELY defies the Torah, even AFTER PROPER REPROOF, and even though he KNOWS HE IS SINNING, and makes NO EFFORT TO IMPROVE.
Note: Reproof doesn’t mean yelling at him that he’s a shaygetz and a menuval. It means explaining to him in a caring, loving way, in private, that he is not on the right path, etc. ????? ??? ????? ????.
Hence:
Neturei Karta – Yes, their views are insane, but they are still your fellow Jews, there is no evidence that they sin with defiance, and even if they do commit actual sins out of their perverted beliefs, for which I have no evidence, they are ??????? ????? who have been mislead by others. You needn’t love any of them and be their best friend. But you cannot hate them, and you must treat them as you would want to be treated.
Lev Tahor – Same as NK. Their leaders, though, I’m not so sure. Depends on whether they fit the above exceptions.
????? ??? ??????? – Definitely not a secular Jew from birth. But if he grew up religious, and you know that he does so defiantly after proper reproof, and he doesn’t wish to change, you can and must hate him and not display any concern for him.
PRIDE Chevra – Not sure what you mean. Is he actually flagrantly married to a man, etc. and has he been given proper reproof? Then I guess. But merely being proud of his orientation though doesn’t make him a ???. Same as NK.
Hassidic car-blocker: We’ve all experienced this, but a one-time annoyance doesn’t exclude him from ??? and ????. Not everyone has the greatest ????. If it upsets you though, you must tell him that he wronged you and that he should apologize and not do it again.
> car-blocker
toonaphish – do you live on my block?! Because I know him too! Shazsheri is surely jesting that it is a “one time annoyance”. Mine is doing it repeatedly with confidence – replying to an “am haaretz” who wants to drive out that this is “davening time”. I tried reproving him indirectly, such as visible avoiding shaking his hand publicly immediately after his rude behavior, hoping for Pavlovian effect, but this did not help. I find it beyond my capabilities to do a proper tochacha and cop out with the halocha that if you are not able to, you don’t have to.
anyone who doesn’t act like a jew, (i.e. believes the 13 ikkarim and keeps shabbos publicly) one is obligated to hate with utmost contempt, in your heart and externally. this has nothing to do with knowing what is in someone’s heart. this is the clear psak of the chofetz chaim. no issur of lashon hara, rather one is obligated to dan l’kaf chov and speak badly on them. there is no din aravus, there is no issur of ribis, they have a din of a goy.
this is the din of a heretic regardless of them also having the din of a “tinok sh’nishba”. Such a person does not have a portion in the next world.
there is still an obligation of basic chesed to such a heretic, and a lot of the dinim l’maaseh are questioned for various reasons by gedolai poskim. so, we are generally accustomed to take the chumra both ways, maybe they have the “din of a yid” maybe “din of a goy”. However, the hatred towards anyone who acts like a goy is deeply important. Such a person is not part of “klal yisroel”.
this is the din of a heretic regardless of them also having the din of a “tinok sh’nishba”. Such a person does not have a portion in the next world
Source that all this applies to a ????? ??????
@somejewiknow
I understand that you feel that your response should be the halacha and that you wish it was the halacha, but unfortunately it is the opposite of the halacha. I would humbly suggest that you supplement your ?????? in the ??? ???? with some basic knowledge of ???? ????.Regarding your ???? ???? about “ribbis”:
The ???? says the following. I quote: ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????
Bear in mind that the ????? are ???? in 2 of your “13 ikkarim” (see the ????? in beginning of chelek ????? ??? at the end and the whole ???? ?? as well as ????? ????? ??? ??) as well as being ????? ??? ???????.
The ???? continues:
????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? (?? ???? ??”? ???? ????”?). ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? (????? ?’ ?????) ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????As far as the rest of your ??? ????? ???, allow me to quote from the ????? in a ?????. First regarding the ?speaking badly about them” balderdash:
??? ?????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ??????
????? ?????, ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??????, ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????, ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? , ???????? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? . ???? ???? ??? ????? , ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? , ????? ????? ?????? ???? , ?????? ????? ????? ??????As to your “klal yisroel” “din of a goy” nonsense:
???? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???????? ????????. ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????
??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????????? ???? ????? ????
????? on ????? ???? ????
???? on ???? ????? ???? ????
Big ?????? in ????? ????? ???
I don’t see a disagreement between us. The “Karaim” as clearly described by the Gedolim you quoted are a very accurate description of what many call today’s “Modern Orthodox”, laymen that unintentionally misunderstand some fundamentals.
The clear “honesty, innocence, and deep respect for the real Gedolim” that the Rambam describes those mistaken “karoim” is s stark contrast to the last section of the Rambam you quote about kofrim, apikorsim, that aptly describe nearly all sell-proclaimed “Jewish” michallei shabbos bfarhesya today. That Rambam spell is out clearly, which is why I don’t see where we disagree.
If your point in bringing that last section is because of his point about “tinok sh’nishba”, I don’t understand why you omitted the last words of that Rambam that says regarding them “?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????”. Being a “tinok sh’nishba” doesn’t change much, with many Gedolai poskim clear that a michalel shabbos b’farhesia specifically can never be considered a tinok sh’nishba, because it specifically is always a clear rejection of Yiddishkeit.
Beyond all there, there is some nuance, as I explicitly said, regarding the psak halacha for many of these practical halachos, like ribis and the like. For example, one contemporary stance in some poskim is that the classic “red line” of shabbos has become so blurred in modern time, R”L, that many Jews thinks breaking shabbos is “perfectly Jewish” because it is so normalized. As such, the psak is to be machmir on both sides.
However, none of this overrides the fundamental need for the Jewish heart to fully hate anyone who hates Hashem.
Equating Karaims to MO clearly comes from someone who met neither, but listened to some speaker.
Karaims were also different from individuals violating something: they were centuries-old communities that followed their tradition. Maybe modern Reform is a better comparison, as they follow generations of their leaders. I had once a reform person helping me out with a ride during the summer trying to make sure I’ll be at the destination by 5pm as he thought that shabbat starts 5pm sharp every week they way they celebrate at his temple – and he was intent that I don’t violate it. Glad we cleared it on the way, or he’d get a speeding ticket.
Also, are Karaims mehalel shabbos miduaraita? I picture them sitting in the dark, eating cold pizza without their wives. Weird, yes, but what malochos do they perform in the process?
Karaims are reshoyim.
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