August 12, 2008 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #588010
I have been noticing a lot of frum women wearing sundresses with Lycra long sleeve shirts underneath so the outfit now looks like a proper jumper. These long sleeve shirts are also sold on Frum clothing websites along with “half sleeves” to wear under short sleeve trendy shirts.
I understand the use of these Lycra shirts is so the elbow does not show but, what about how tight these shirts are and the revealing dresses women wear them under?
Can someone please enlighten me on how these are considered to be within the laws of modesty?August 12, 2008 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #645768
“Can someone please enlighten me on how these are considered to be within the laws of modesty?”
No reason to assume they are modest, just because so many people are unfortunately wearing them.August 13, 2008 1:21 am at 1:21 am #645769bashielooParticipant
milichig- i’m with you! well spoken-written!!August 13, 2008 1:38 am at 1:38 am #645770mdlevineMember
the look it self – meaning a 3 qtr or long sleeve shirt under an appropriate sized and styled jumper is tzinus.
sadly, there is a mistaken impression that as long as the elbow, knee, collar bone and everything in-between is in someway covered, everything is fine. without getting into the whole argument of “well don’t look”, I think it is safe to say that this line of thinking is not correct, otherwise pants would be fine as would lycra items as you describeAugust 13, 2008 3:04 am at 3:04 am #645771JewessMember
I know nobody wants to hear this, but: If you’re a guy, don’t look–concentrate on your own woman or whatever. If you’re a girl, don’t wear anything of the sort if you feel that it is not tzanua–don’t worry so much about others, you’ll get worry lines.
I’ve never heard of “half sleeves”. Do you mean short sleeves?August 13, 2008 3:58 am at 3:58 am #645772Matisyohu28Member
mdlevine – just to clarify, pants are assur for an entirely different reason – they could be baggy and they’d still be assur, for two reasons, namely, many(I think rov) poskim hold that once a garment is beged ish, it stays that way, making pants beged ish, and the second reason is that if it has a split down the midsection/pelvic area it is entirely untznius(see hiow halacha predicted that some am horatzim would say pants are mutar? as in the days of the old generations of misguided ‘modern’ orthodoxy)
that being said..this is disastrous.August 13, 2008 4:54 am at 4:54 am #645773MOMof4Member
Please clarify for me-if the sleeves arent made from lycra but from cotton is that “look” ok (the long sleeved t shirt under a short sleeve shirt)?August 13, 2008 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #645774
atually i can clarify for you,
A rebbitzin who actually started a worldwide tniyus program told a few girls(me included) that there is NOTHING wrong with the lycra shells. they can b as tight as you want, your elbows are covered so there is no issue.
just like any style at first if it gives a ‘look’, you shouldnt be the first to wear it, however once it gets excepted in the community, there is no problem.
these include: belts(which show the figure of a woman), peep-toe shoes, pencil skirts, long sweaters, the POSH/BOB( which btw if you ladies would know where the style came from you’d rip the sheitel off you head) and the list is endless.
again once its accepted in the community there is NO problem!August 13, 2008 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #645775
lgbg, That is CLEARLY wrong.
“they can b as tight as you want”?
“belts(which show the figure of a woman)”
Are you kidding?August 13, 2008 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #645776
Thank You for your answers! Many of you have answered my question whether you agree or disagree. I appreciate that.
Momof4- I am referring to any shirt that is way too tight whether it is cotton, Lycra or any other fabric being worn under a dress that is way too tight in the first place.
The next simcha you go to look at how many people are dressed the way I described.
The problem is that they are not appropriately sized or styled.August 13, 2008 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #645777Mayan_DvashParticipant
Jewess’ comment is short and to the point with nothing more to add.August 13, 2008 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #645778
im sorry i reread what i wrote and i left out a paragraph.
i meant to say lycra tight sleeves is not attractive and the rest of these meshuga styles are, what im trying to say is the belts, bob, pencil skirts, are the real issue to focus on not the lycra tops.
and the reason people think its okay to wear such styles is becuase ‘everone’ does it. so why can’t they?
more clear now?August 13, 2008 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #645779rabbiofberlinParticipant
I am going to break my resolution in not always responding to the many subjects posted but I feel that, “lema-an ha-emess” some of the postings who claim to be halachally authoritative muts be corrected.
Matisyohu28 writes “pants are assur for an entirely different reason” and then goes on to make all pants “ossur”. I hate to break it to you,in view of your snide remarksa about modern orthodoxy, but you are totally wrong. Pants that are made for women are NOT beged ish and there are some pants that can be worn, although I understand that the chareidi oilam does not wear it.
Rav Ovadia Josef shelita explicitly allows pants of a certain cut and all you need is to check the Bach and other Poskim to see that pants can be worn. Last time I looked, the Bach and the Shach were of the “old’ generation……August 14, 2008 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #645780BYgirlMember
WOW,lgbg, all I can say is thatI am highly unimpressed with what you wrote. That would even be an understatement, I am embarrassed.I do not know you, what you look like or how you choose to represent yourself but I do know that from what I have learned from my teachers, what you wrote is completely incorrect. To just be quite would be as if I agree, I therefore feel compelled to respond. I suggest that you go back to this rebbitzen of yours and speak it out. When you say as tight as you want are you just referring to the sleeves or the entire body. Lets say that the pencil skirt, belt, and fitted sleeves are all sensitivities. Not osur but sensitivities. Does that mean that there is NOTHING wrong with it?August 15, 2008 1:44 am at 1:44 am #645781namelessMember
HERE, HERE!August 15, 2008 5:37 am at 5:37 am #645782blue shirtParticipant
You mean “accepted”, not “excepted”. The two words have nothing in common. Look in a dictionary. Without regard to the content of your message, it loses its value if you cannot write what you mean.August 15, 2008 6:56 am at 6:56 am #645783KlerrMember
Lo Alainee The viber wear all sorts of devices and items of “clothing” to enhance their appearance.
These minhageem migoonim must be stopped NOW!!!
Just because they have bin doin dis for thousands of years doesn’t make it Mekubal.
Neeskatnoo Hadoirois, we must create more syageem in our Holy Lives.August 15, 2008 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #645784
bygirl and everyone else:
My post may have been confusing, sorry, so now i will rewrite what i meant:
milchig wrote that there is a problem with tight lycra sleeve shells, so i wrote that the SLEEVES can be as tight as you want(mind you it looks ugly) NOT FOR THE ACTUAL BODY!
now about the belts, skirts, shoes…. i was saying rather focus on the these issues which show off the figure so much more then these tight sleeves which cover your hands just show the figure of it-which is allowed!
now if anyone else doesnt understand please tell me so i can clarify!
thank youAugust 15, 2008 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #645785
Unfortunately, the style nowadays is THE TIGHTER THE BETTER. This includes maternaty clothing (the ladies look like beached whales). The women want to draw attention to themselves, and they are succeeding, by the looks they are getting from the appreciative men folk. It’s a terrible situation, and I consider myself a pretty with it kind of person (I wear Denim and I am not chassidish). It is very sad.
All we can do is to focus on ourselves and our own tznius and our avodah to Hashem, and to daven for moshiach to come.August 15, 2008 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #645786
thank you for correcting me. no spelling checker on here.August 15, 2008 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #645787levi123Member
Oh please people calm down all you guys who have complains about womens new trend fashion just shut your eyes and dont look.
There is nothing that you can do about it . there are plenty of prettY girls and women who are tzniusdick and no matter what they wear there will always be complains about them beacuse they look too good.
So my advice is to all you tzadekim out there just cover your eyes if you have a problem with what you see.
And it is possible that what you wear is not that tzniusdick eather and just beacuse you look at all these women wearing todays fashion and you think something is wrong with it MAKES YOU THE UNTZNIESDICK PERSON BEACUSE YOU DONT HAVE CLEAN THOUGHTS SOOOOO JUST LAY OFF!!!!August 15, 2008 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #645788yoshiMember
Whether most of you like it or not, women (& men) choose clothing which look good on them. That usually means, it’s “figure flattering.” Yes women are built differently with hips and such, and they are not going to wear bags and robes to cover that up. So don’t get mixed up between “tight” and “fitted” nicely. What I’ve seen where I live, the women usually wear those lycra shirts Under their tops, to keep Within the tznius laws, they are not trying to be flashy. They are made to fit “tight” so the clothing on top don’t look shlumpy, but look refined.
To the person who posted, “pregnant women look like beached whales.” whether it’s a joke to you or not, it’s very insensitive of you to write such a thing. Do you say this before or after you daven for Moshiach to come? Just to clarify it for you, the line is, “I feel like a beached whale,” said the pregnant woman (not an onlooker).August 15, 2008 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #645789BYgirlMember
Thanks lgbgAugust 15, 2008 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #645790
your very welcome, and i hope now you realize what i meant. have a gout shabbos(and to everyone else)August 17, 2008 6:32 am at 6:32 am #645791postsemgirlMember
A man who looks at a women because he has unclean thoughts? It is perfectly natural and normal for a man to look at a woman! A person can never kill the yetzer hara for arayos and even great people have trouble with it! shmeiras einayim is very hard. I don’t know if you are male or female but I wonder.
About the lycra. If it is worn under another layer and is used to cover the body when the woman is in action, there is nothing wrong with it. if it is worn by itself then there is a problem because it is very very tight because it is made that way. Therefore, each woman for herself should decide if she should wear it.August 17, 2008 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #645792saythatagainMember
levi123: Are you joking? Everyone (and I am a female) knows that Lycra is to tight and should not be worn. I think it’s easier for you to buy new shirts than it is for all men to close thier eyes and not look. Be honest with yourself.August 17, 2008 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #645793rrgirlMember
I don’t know or care which “rebbetzin” you spoke to about this shaila, because it’s just that, a halachic shaila-for a ROV! She could have started as many “Tznius Awarness Programs” as she likes its not for her to pasken. I spoke to an acual rov, who told me that the coverings on arms are not allowed to be skin tight. I think everyone has to speak to their Moreh Ho’roah about the issue, not their local othordox rebbetzin.August 18, 2008 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #645794
Thank you all for your responses! After going upstate this past weekend (going to shul, talking to the women I met and driving around with my husband motzei Shabbat) I have realized that this may be the new style and even at my (not so old age) I am not up with the latest trends. I guess at long as you are covered it is accepted.
My opinion after reading the above posts is that depending on how tight these shirts are worn they can either make or break the look.August 18, 2008 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #645795
a very chosove rebbitzen.August 18, 2008 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #645796BogenParticipant
lgbg, anyone can call anyone “choshev.” You need a ROV to decide (like rrgirl told you.)August 18, 2008 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #645797
bogen, thank you for your advice. and by the way there’s tight and there’s tight. its a matter of perspective.August 18, 2008 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #645798The Big OneParticipant
Actually its a matter of law, not perspective.August 18, 2008 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #645799
This is also an issue for those of us who wear maternity clothing. As the baby grows (and mommy too!) the clothing does not and everything becomes super tight. So one can tell if you have an inny or an outy belly button, and other protrusions become very obvious. I think some ladies don’t realize this, especiallly when they are wearing the very stylish lycra tops. As one choshuv rebbitzen said “you can practically see the baby” and she urged women to not wear these very tight styles.August 19, 2008 12:07 am at 12:07 am #645800
the big one
its not law-halacha im talking about im talking about what each person calls tight, i think you know what i mean.
if not i can explain further.September 12, 2008 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #645801Proud JewMember
Tznius is also about feelings, and this latest style really KILLS.September 12, 2008 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #645802
Thank You Proud Jew.September 12, 2008 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #645803johnnydramaMember
In my humble opinion,
I always felt that tznius is a personal thing as long as your skirt is knee length and your elbows are covered your getting credit for dressing modestly. Everything else should be dependent on the persons religious level and Hashem knows when your faking it and when you know its too tight…If your really doing the right thing Hashem will protect you from anything bad people will say about you.September 12, 2008 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #645804Will HillParticipant
johnny, Firstly the knees and elbows must be covered at ALL TIMES. Including when climbing steps, getting into a car, etc.
Secondly, tznius is more than just covering knees and elbows. i.e. Tight clothing is not a matter of personal definition, but rather one of halachic definition.September 12, 2008 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #645805just meParticipant
I’m just wondering why about half of the discussions in the Coffee Room are about tznius? Easy target? Heads in the gutter?
As for saying pregnant women look like beached whales, perhaps the writer should go to a meeting of ATIME where the women would give anything to “look like a beached whale”
So we must be tzius but we can hurt people? Is that how it should be?September 12, 2008 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #645806johnnydramaMember
who is defining the criteria?
very good point… some people just don’t know better or perhaps are “simple.”September 12, 2008 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #645807chasid-of-HashemMember
folks, we can all agree to disagree but the way tznius works is not by putting up one master list of every garment and material of clothing and listing assur or mutar.
a lycra shell that is two sizes too small on a woman is not tznius. a lycra shell which fits her properly (i.e room to breathe)is fine same goes for ANY material.
what i dont get is why would a person where something so tight that you can see their dinner digesting?September 12, 2008 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #645808
Just because a woman is pregnant does not give her permission to wear tight clothing and to not be tznius. This chas v’shalom does not mean to insult anyone, but if someone is wearing offensive and ugly attire they have to face the fact of what they look like to the outside world. As far as the women who want to have children, and don’t have any, I am sure that most of them will feel that their bodies are kodosh and are carrying and supporting a holy body and will want to dress tznius. I know so many people that do not go to cemetary or the zoo, they don’t want to have any negative effect on the baby. well, how about the clothing they are wearing. do i really have to see if you have an inny or an outy or see your undergarment? Where are the husbands that they let their wives walk around like this??? Maybe they don’t realize…September 14, 2008 2:44 am at 2:44 am #645809havesomeseichelMember
please explain why almost every post has to deal with women and tzniyus? Too much discussion can lead to overkill!!!! And people will disregard everything they hear about tzniyus instead of listening to just a few comments that are well placed. People should reflect internally instead of commenting on others when they are not perfect themselves. A good suggestion I heard once is that you should appoint a friend that you would listen to and ask them to comment when something is too tight/short/ see through because sometimes people do not always see everything in the mirror or the light in their room does not show what is seen outdoors.September 14, 2008 3:19 am at 3:19 am #645810ujmParticipant
yeah. And if you talk too much about Shmiras Shabbos, it is overkill and people will disreagrd Shabbos? And if you talk too much about loshon hora (as we constantly hear about it) is it overkill? And will people then talk loshon hora because it was talked about too much?
Why is it that some people are specifically allergic to hearing about tznius? Could it be that these are the very same folks who disregard tznius in public and don’t want to be called to the carpet about it? Don’t want it to be realized for the sin it is?
Naaaaaa…. couldn’t be.September 14, 2008 4:17 am at 4:17 am #645811havesomeseichelMember
I must not have made myself clear enough…Tzniyus is important, and that is why I said it should be spoken about, just not as much as it has been. When they give shiurim, they are almost always about tzniyus… what about lashan hara? shabbos? ahavas yisroel? tefillah? mitzvos bein adom lechaveiro? I have not heard a speech about those topics recently… what makes tzniyus more important then any of the above mentioned topics so as to disregard everything else? If women dont get it (after a certain age) then the topics should be switched and come back to later. Those who listen and pay attention are normally the ones who dont need it as much. The ones who dont come or dont implement what they heard are the “they’re not referring to me” crowd. What about lashan hara? motzei sham ra? rechilus?
I am not against a good mussar shmooze about tzniyus, and I feel that my tzniyus is quite high, but of course there is always room to improve.
I hate to ask, but what about the men practicing shmiras anayim? men should be criticized and pay more attention to what they should and not to ladies on the street. That should be preached along with tzniyus… It is getting to the point of burkas for women so that only our eyes show, and even that is wrong as our epidermis might be viewed by men. Maybe the men need blinders….like horses so they dont swerve off track…September 14, 2008 4:45 am at 4:45 am #645812ujmParticipant
because pritzus is one of, if not the, biggest pitfalls of our generation. it NEEDS constant rehashing. and obviously the gedolim recognize this and rightfully stress this important topic.
talking about tznius is never too much, just like talking about loshon hora is never too much. if there was a big problem with many people being mchalel shabbos (like there is with people being mchalel tznius) I am certain our gedolim would endlessly be talking about the importance of shmiras shabbos.
btw loshon hora also gets many shiurim.September 14, 2008 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #645813000646Participant
TO Ujm, Joseph and all you pepole who say tznius hasnt changed in the past 2000 years, tznius depends on what is considerd pritzusdick in the time and place were you are: 2000 yrs ago woman walked around barefoot or in sandels, you would probaly hold that is ossur today. If there was a style that is accteptable to jewish woman today for arguments sake black stockings (this is not a real example) that started being worn specifcly by harlots and the like I think you would agree that it would be ossur for jewish woman to wear them even though it was fine before. It also makes sense that the gedolim of today would write tshuvas saying its ossur to wear black stockings that would still be around after this style stopped being worn by harlots ect. and it wouldnt be pritzusdick anymore. so to only assur things that wernt ossur before for resons that wernt nogeia before (but are nogeia now) and not be “motter” for the same reason just dosnt seem to make much sense…. somthing to think aboutMay 19, 2009 4:27 am at 4:27 am #645814coke not pepsiMember
can i ask a question do you people(very diff crowd on here then there was 8 months ago) really think there is no problem with wearing shortsleeve over long sleeve? i dont like the look of it, i know i seem to be the minority, and i think it says something when you go into a goyish store and have to look for a tzinus shirt ,now it seems people go in and buy whatever shirt they want and if the sleeves are to short, they just put a shell under. i was having a discussion with my friend about this a couple of years ago when the style was just coming around and they said they hated it and would never wear it and guess what? a year later she was wearing it…i dont wear it -i just want to hear everyones opinion on itMay 19, 2009 8:59 am at 8:59 am #645815shalom in IsraelMember
Coke not Pespi – the look is horrible – kind of like someone is trying to not look frum so is doing a b’di eved. Seeing a sundress with spaghetti straps, with a flesh colored (yup seen this too) or other colored “shell” under it, is not the way a Bas Melech should be dressing. I’m all for women looking put together, and equally dislike the new Yerushalmi “style” of shapeless clothes and a “shol” on top – I don’t believe that’s a Bas Melech either. Why can’t Jewish girls look pleasing to the eye in regal clothing that covers what needs to be covered – oh and by the way – where does it say in halacha that women can walk around with skirts that barely (if that) skim the knees. Even if they are covered when she is standing; take a look at the same women sitting on a bench – not a pretty sight!May 19, 2009 9:25 am at 9:25 am #645816jewishfeminist02Member
Coke not pepsi, are you talking about any short sleeve shirt over any long sleeve shirt? The original thread was started specifically with regard to tight Lycra long sleeve shirts, which is an entirely different issue.
Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with wearing a Lycra shirt as long as the shirt on top is not too skimpy. As someone mentioned before, the Lycra can cover the sleeves, but if there is nothing over it in the chest area, that is clearly a tznius problem. Then again, if you have a loose-fitting long sleeve shirt, you can wear pretty much anything on top of it. It’s more a matter of personal preference; if you don’t like the style/think it looks ugly, that doesn’t automatically make it untznius.
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