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If you are allowed to lie, doesn’t the other person know you’re allowed to and therefore know you’re lying?
They know you are allowed to hypothetically, but they don’t know if you are in any specific situation (unless they are a mind-reader).
Most people these days who lie in the name of ‘Shalom’ are really lying because they’re embarrassed to admit or just cannot face the truth.
555, when did you take the survey that came to that conclusion?
Joseph
welcome to todays generation of dishonesty & corruption. you don’t need to be a genius to know when your dealing with an honest person (if you can be lucky to still find someone) or when your talking to a corrupt person.
it brings tears to me when I look around me & see people I know that are living in frum torah communities & are living their daily lives filled with dishonesty & corruption. I never believed kLal yisroel could ever reach such a low level R”L with such chillul Hashem R”L
Perhaps you can comfort me in some way.
im a businessman dealing with thousands of people.
but nobody needs to be a genius to see their own friend/neighbor doing acts of dishonesty in todays day & its a big chillul Hashem r”l
examples include:
1)parking in someone elses driveway (even if only for 2 minutes)-dishonest & stealing
2)putting your home under someone else name so you can get HUD & all the other programs from U.S. that honestly your really not entitled to
3)borrowing your neighbors COSTCO card (membership is only for you & wife & single children included-cannot even be lent to son-in-law)
4)Borrowing your business friend airline card to save money on your personal flight & many other examples r”l
sadly thousands of people do these corrupt acts & its a big chillul Hashem
ki malai ha’aretz chamas, ever heard the line in the USA your living in Sodom?
what’s dishonest about #1?
its the same as borrowing someones hat from just sitting in the shul coat room to daven maariv. although its not being used anyways. its still stealing until you ask him if you can use it or park in his driveway
There’s a halachic difference between parking in someone’s driveway (which is his property) and parking in front of [blocking] his driveway (that is public property that he has some rights of way to.)
“im a businessman dealing with thousands of people.”
And here I thought you were a psychologist.
RebYidd23- I could see how there would be individual situations in which a person would know that you’re lying for the sake of shalom. Generally, if done right, the person will not know.
This is one of the situations about which the ???? says “????? ???? ?????” – use your common sense to know if it’s the right thing to do or not.
Unfortunately, there are always going to be people who use ????? and ????? to their own ends. That being said, there really are situations that come up in everyday life which require lying (or omitting some of the truth) for the sake of ????.
I don’t see how parking in someone’s driveway is dishonest. Unless you tell them that you didn’t park in their driveway.
Stealing is dishonest.
Is trespassing halachicly categorized as gezel?
Maybe it’s not outright ??? – I don’t know the halachic aspect of the matter – but in my opinion, it’s the wrong thing to do.
Also, what if the person shows up and wants to park in his own driveway?
Stealing is not dishonest.
“Is trespassing halachicly categorized as gezel?”
Rashi (d’varim 19:14) says it is, tosafos in b”m (61a d”h ella) argues.
As per Google, sounds like stealing isn’t dishonest:
adjective
behaving or prone to behave in an untrustworthy or fraudulent way.
“he was a dishonest hypocrite prepared to exploit his family”
synonyms: fraudulent, corrupt, swindling, cheating, double-dealing; More
intended to mislead or cheat.
“he gave the editor a dishonest account of events”
Fraud and swindling are forms of theft.
the fact of reading these past few replies shows that most people today have a big problem confessing & admitting to hashem or their friend that they did something wrong which we can all see in each persons reply in trying to convince themselves that its not stealing when in truth we all know its pure stealing.
Sadly-as I’ve said many times before-its top truth that today we are sadly living in the generation of corruption & dishonesty. keep enjoying ourselves in Sodom.
& then we all wonder why there’s so much tzaros in klal yisroel today R”L
Would you feel bad hitting your lovely child if he wont listen to you to go to sleep or do his homework? we call it a potch of love, where sometimes as a parent we have no choice & we all know its for the childs benefit & chinuch. HASHEM is our father & sometimes he has no choice but to get stabbed with unlimited tzaros in klal yisroel R”L when we won’t ever wake up finally do teshuva as a nation together.
I daven that hopefully soon YOU will realize the mistakes we have made & require our immediate teshuva ASAP (%80 of solving a issue/teshuva is admitting/realizing you have an issue. its only the final %20 left after you realize your issues that completes your teshuva)
Two adages apply here… doctor, heal thyself. And, tov sheberofiim ligehinnom.
Oish.. It’s this same “navi” “min hashamayim”, “crying” for us in the name of the Bashefer.
“what’s dishonest about #1?”
*
Book “Kosher Money” by Rabbi Yoel Schwartz (A Collection of Insights and Laws Regarding Personal Property Obligations) gives answer on your question. Book also proves that Mashiach Agent is right
Fraud and swindling are forms of theft.
Seriously? What does that have to do with anything?
Google is therefore not saying that stealing isn’t dishonest.
Google says that fraud and swindling–two forms of theft, to quote you–are dishonest, not all theft. Trespassing isn’t fraud, it isn’t swindling, and it isn’t dishonest.
DY.
That’s how insane the world has become that even the largest web searcher-as you claim-gets to be an agent of the yetzer hara to convince you that theres nothing wrong with stealing
another example:taking food from a private simcha that a person isn’t invited to he just davens in the shul that the simcha is taking place at.
may we finally wake up to truth & reality of what life is really about. why YOU are really in this temporary olam haseker world earth. the olam haemes is upstairs not here.
The post you asked about wasn’t addressing trespassing.
MA, neither Google nor I said such a thing.
Now you need to do TESHUVA for your false accusation. And you wonder why there are such tzaros in klal Yisroel, R”L.
DY
here is a copy of what MENO wrote above 2 days ago
“As per Google, sounds like stealing isn’t dishonest:
adjective
behaving or prone to behave in an untrustworthy or fraudulent way.
“he was a dishonest hypocrite prepared to exploit his family”
synonyms: fraudulent, corrupt, swindling, cheating, double-dealing; More
intended to mislead or cheat.
“he gave the editor a dishonest account of events”
i was just replying to what you wrote below
“Google is therefore not saying that stealing isn’t dishonest.”
thus agreeing with what MENO wrote.
but if you feel i accused you of something you didn’t do/write although you can see it yourself above. then i beg you forgiveness. cause anything i write is only with truth & sincerity, for honesty is one of my top priorities-as it is to Hashem also-in life & that’s why i hate this corrupt & dishonest generation we are living in today.
if it wasn’t one of my top priorities then why would i even comment on this topic? i would just let it go
HATZLACHA & MAY HASHEM BE WITH YOU
“Google is therefore not saying that stealing isn’t dishonest.”
thus agreeing with what MENO wrote.
No, thus disagreeing with what Meno wrote, but neither Meno, nor even Google, was saying that stealing is okay, just that it doesn’t fall under the category of “dishonest”.
“The dor we live in is a terrible dor. In fact its the worst dor i ever lived in.” – Bar Shattya
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/bnai-torah-with-trophy-wives#post-394284
DY, assuming this post http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lying-for-the-sake-of-shalom#post-587866
was in response to me (I don’t know to whom else it would be), allow me to clarify:
Fraud = dishonest
Stealing ? dishonest
The fact that some forms of stealing also fall under the category of dishonesty, doesn’t mean that stealing is always dishonest. [The converse of a true statement is not necessarily true.]
when is stealing allowed & considered being an honest person? can you tell us when?
MA, nobody said it was OK. It’s a semantic issue; is it “dishonest”.
Murder is wrong. Is it dishonest?
Murder is a different terrible sin but it has nothing to do with stealing or being dishonest
And SDD is saying that stealing is a different terrible sin but has nothing to do with being dishonest.
I would just like to clarify my stance on this issue, as I see there has been some controversy regarding my earlier comment. I posted Google’s definition for the word “dishonest” only to point out that stealing doesn’t fall into the category of “dishonest”. I never intended to imply that stealing is acceptable, nor did I intend to mitigate the severity of stealing. I was only presenting an issue of semantics. I’ll admit that my comment is quite irrelevant to both the title and original post of this thread, and posting such a comment is generally a violation of internet board etiquette, but I felt that the thread had already gone off-topic (starting with Mashiach Agent’s first post), and thus I figured my comment was OK to post.
Sorry for any confusion I may have caused
🙂
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