maaleh of chatzos

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  • #613722

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    whats the maaleh of chatzos for slichos on the first night, and if theres a problem with davening before chatzos how are there shuls that do so?

    #1033041

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The slichos of the first night contain the words ?????? ????? and ??????, so it is not appropriate to say it in the morning.

    The only heter I’ve heard for before chatzos, is because otherwise people wouldn’t come.

    #1033042

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    If you say it in the morning, should you say “b’macharas menucha”

    #1033043

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What do you say instead of ????? ?????? and ?????? ???? ???? Whatever it is, it won’t rhyme.

    #1033044

    Joseph
    Participant

    There are yeshivos that say the first slichos in the morning before shachris.

    #1033045

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    dy,

    that doesnt explain the maaleh of chatzos over before chatzos

    #1033046

    147
    Participant

    Given that Selichos prior to Chatzos presents a Halachic challenge:- How do Selichos on Yom Kippur nite prior to Chatzos handle this issue?

    #1033047

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    B’omdom ayeifos

    #1033048

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    147,

    whats the given?

    no one has GIVEN me an answer

    #1033049

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Why do we still say ??? ???? ????? ????? Nobody is trying to force this upon us these days, ?”?.

    #1033050

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Magen Avraham 581:1:

    ??????’ – ???? ????”? ?? ??”? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???”? ???? ?? ????

    Magen Avraham 565:5:

    ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????’ ??? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????”?

    See also Igros Moshe O.C. 2:105

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14675&st=&pgnum=295

    #1033051


    Participant

    The slichos of the first night contain the words ?????? ????? and ??????, so it is not appropriate to say it in the morning.

    In a multi-week scenario the same Selichos are said on the second Sunday. I don’t recall any midnight Selichos for the second Sunday.

    #1033052

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    In a multi-week scenario the same Selichos are said on the second Sunday.

    No, there’s a different ????? for ??? ??????.

    #1033053

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, what I mentioned is found in ??? ????? (though he doesn’t say ?????? is an issue, he says ????? and ??? is).

    #1033054


    Participant

    I stand corrected.

    #1033055

    old man
    Participant

    The explanation is as follows:

    PAA’a quote of the Magen Avraham is obviously very relevant, but missing in the reasoning.

    According to kabbalistic sources and led by the Ari Hakadosh, the night hours before chatzot are the hours of “din” and not rachamim. The 13 middot should not be said then, to the point that some sources regard it as close to kefirah (mekatzetz b’netiyot is the term used). Not a single sefardi posek permits slichot before chatzot, and some of them prefer a person sit silently and say nothing if he is “stuck” in a shul where they are saying slichot before chatzot. Until Reb Moshe, there was no Ashkenazi posek who disagreed, as can be seen by the Magen Avraham.

    In the old days , this was not an issue, as slichot was always said in the early morning, b’ashmoret haboker, during the entire slichot period, including the first night. Clearly, the piyut of b’motza’ei menucha still applies b’ashmoret haboker.

    For reasons that are unclear, maybe due to the advent of chazanut (my opinion) , perhaps due to the difficulty of getting up so early in the morning, something that not everyone did, the first night became an understandably big deal (with outstanding attendance by all measures), and was moved to motzaei shabbat, but only after chatzot.

    When it became dangerous for individuals to walk outside late at night in America, selichot gradually was shifted to before chatzot. The reasoning is simple. It is preferable to say it at night before chatzot than not to say it at all. Although this is against kabbalah, Reb Moshe as a Litivishe posek par excellence could find no issur in saying it before chatzot and he reluctantly permitted it as a ho’ro’at sh’ah. Others followed quickly, and saying selichot nowadays before chatzot is a common practice among the halachic-bent ashkenazim. I have never seen it amongst the sefardim, certainly not here in Israel.

    A last point. 147 mentioned the fact that we say 13 midot on yom kippur night, in contradiction to what I explained above. Although this is a good question, my opinion is that the “din” issue of those hours falls away on Yom Kippur, in which the sha’arei shamayim are open “m’erev ad erev” through ne’ilah, lechol ha’de’ot.

    #1033056

    Leyzer
    Participant

    147 said

    Given that Selichos prior to Chatzos presents a Halachic challenge:- How do Selichos on Yom Kippur nite prior to Chatzos handle this issue?

    My response:

    R Ovadia Yosef discusses this point. His and others’ opinion is that al pi Kaballah anytime in the night before chatzos is a bad time to say selichos (i.e not just not an Eis Rotzon, but the opposite) and one should not say 13 middos. One should only say Selichos in early morning. If this is not possible then the only other time is Minchatime.

    In light of this, he asks how come we say Selichos on YK? He explains the whole of YK is itself an Eis Rotzon and therefore the above problem doesn’t exist.

    NB

    Note that the Heter of R Moshe Feinstein to say Selichos at night before CHatzos was only given to a community who were scared to go out at night because the streets were dangerous. I wonder what RM would think of people who misuse this Heter because they are too lazy to get up early.

    #1033057

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Clearly, the piyut of b’motza’ei menucha still applies b’ashmoret haboker.

    Yes, until alos hashachar.

    ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????. ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????. ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ???, ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? “?????? ???? ???”, ??? “??? ?????? ????? ??????”.

    (??? ????? ?”?)

    #1033058

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    leyzer,

    that shouldnt be too hard, just ask r dovid or r reuvain feinstien

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