December 10, 2010 4:26 am at 4:26 am #593399
I would like to make a machoah for Kovod HaTorah against Joseph Lieberman’s support of toeiva in the military and Sheldon Silver’s support for toeiva marriage. They claim to be religious Jews and they disgrace Judaism with their public support of this terrible thing. I protest.December 10, 2010 4:49 am at 4:49 am #718178
Support for toeiva? Allowing people to serve in the army is hardly the same as supporting their behavior.
We don’t support people living with a woman who they are not married to either, but we don’t kick them out of the army.December 10, 2010 5:24 am at 5:24 am #718180Yanky123Member
Good point Sam. I back you.December 10, 2010 5:26 am at 5:26 am #718181
Any recognition of the existence of their abnormal and immoral behavior is disgusting.December 10, 2010 5:33 am at 5:33 am #718182
No, it is not. That does not come from the torah, it is just homophobia, which is usually felt by people who are afraid that they are homosexual themselves.December 10, 2010 9:02 am at 9:02 am #718184
popa_bar_abba: Is this from the Torah?
??”? (????? ??:??): ??? ??? ???? – ???? ????. ??? ??? ???? ??? ??????, ???? ????? ????? ????.
The meforshim on Nedarim 51a explain toeiva is an unnatural perversion of the human drive.
Igros Moshe (Y.D. 3:115): Toeiva is one of the greatest abominations that even the nations of the world know that it is an incomparable abomination. Therefore there is no need for any rationale to explain why it is an abomination that the whole world despises. The world already holds that the transgressors of this sin are disgusting and are not members of civilization at all. So when a reason is sought for this prohibition, this removes the obscenity from it. It removes the embarrassment, shame and disgrace and completely downplays the seriousness of this issue.December 10, 2010 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #718186
Where does it say that if you have an employee who is gay you need to fire him?
Where does it say you need to kick him out of the army?
Where does it say you need to hate him? Chataim v’lo chot’im- Buddy.
All you have shown is that it is an aveira to engage in the act, even a serious one.
Do you fire your Jewish employees if they don’t keep shabbos? Do you hate them?
Would you fire someone and kick them out of the army if they were married to their mother-in-law’s mother? (Also one of the arayos- eim chamoso)December 10, 2010 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #718187charliehallParticipant
popa is right.
The IDF has openly Gay men and women serving, as do most of our NATO allies — with no problems. If NATO ever mobilizes, American servicemen will be taking orders from Gay NATO officers.December 10, 2010 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #718188Feif UnParticipant
Sam I Am, I agree about the marriage, not about the military.
All people have urges to do things they’re not supposed to. There is nothing wrong with having the urge for the same gender, the problem is acting on it. Legalizing gay marriage would say the ACTIONS are ok, which is wrong. Allowing them in the military doesn’t say anything about the actions.December 10, 2010 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #718190
Charlie: I thought we’d agree on this one. You like my point about the eim chamoso?
I once said it to one of my rebbeim, and he disagreed partially. He seemed to be saying it is worse than eim chamoso, I think because it is an unnatural desire and a breakdown of the pattern of society. But, he was certainly advocating that we accept them as people and not hate or be disgusted by them.December 10, 2010 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #718191Pashuteh YidMember
It uses the word toevah about non-kosher food, as well.
It is somewhat ludicrous for somebody without the nisayon who gets no schar for it to focus his energies criticizing people who do have the nisayon. What a waste of energy. When I get upstairs, they will not give me one iota of schar for this mitzva since I was fortunate not to have any tayva for it. I can’t put myself in the shoes of somebody who does. Halevai I should focus my energies in controlling myself regarding things I do have a tayva for.
As far as Reb Moshe’s tshuva, it is very shver, since it seems to contradict the metzius. Reb Moshe claims that gays are regular people who adopted this tayva because it is extreme, and the only pleasure is that since it is wrong, it is exciting. But clearly the metzius is that gays have no tayva for women, and only a tayva for men. They didn’t decide to develop this tayva for the sake of doing extreme aveiros. They were simply born with it in place of the normal tayva for the opposite gender.
As far as the military goes, I have some questions whether it is wise to take gays in, since it makes their straight bunkmates uncomfortable. Just like the military would not advocate men and women sharing barracks, there may be an issue here as well. It may also be a battle-readiness issue, if there is improper behavior taking place when the soldiers are supposed to be getting a good night’s rest. But these are practical issues, not religious ones.December 10, 2010 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #718192
Oh yes. Just for the record, I support “don’t ask, don’t tell”, but for practical reasons, not homophobic ones.December 10, 2010 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #718193
popa_bar_abba said: “Where does it say that if you have an employee who is gay you need to fire him?”
Would you hire someone who moonlighted as a porn video star? Al achas kama v’kama, you shouldn’t hire someone who “moonlights” in toeiva – which Rav Moshe says “their entire desire for it is only because it is something prohibited and the yetzer harah seduces them to rebel against the will of G?d.”
Pashuteh Yid said: “It uses the word toevah about non-kosher food, as well.”
Non-Kosher food doesn’t get you killed with stoning and kares like toeiva.
Let’s rehash the Torah sources I cited (none of my own coining). In the aforementioned TORAH sources, toeiva people are called…
an unnatural perversion
Rav Moshe Feinstein zt”l:
an abomination that the whole world despises
not members of civilization at all
shameful and disgraceful
most debased sin
disgusting and ridiculedDecember 10, 2010 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #718194
Sam I am, alias, etc.
One day you will talk about this to someone you respect and discover a whole new world.
PopaDecember 10, 2010 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #718195
I respect Rav Moshe Feinstein.December 10, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #718196
and I’ve spoken to him too.December 10, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #718197
and I also discovered a whole new world with Rav Moshe.December 10, 2010 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #718198
I bet you have not spoken to him about this.December 16, 2010 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #718200
The formerly Orthodox Joe Lieberman is now trying to push through allowing open sodomites in the military. Call your Senators and protest. Insist they vote down the sodomy in the military bill.December 16, 2010 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #718201gavra_at_workParticipant
Juicy Lashon Hara.
And yes, it makes me in the mood for a steak.
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