October 6, 2010 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #699037
“Why do you find it so disturbing that when a comment is made such as why the churban happened for a reason other than what I was taught my entire life (and it sounds like a comment made by someone who does not like women too much), that I would ask for a verifiable written source that I can ask my Rov about?”
First of all, I’m not sure why you keep on mentioning “the churban happened for a reason other than what I was taught my entire life”. Now you know it. What diffrence does it make if you didn’t before?
Second, I take issue with you labeling an Amora who said one of the reasons for the churban was something women did as “someone who does not like women too much”. Seeing as women are about 50% of the population, something of the tragic magnitude of the churban would probably be at least partially their fault, no?
“I would ask for a verifiable written source that I can ask my Rov about”
What do you mean? The post that quoted this Gemora clearly gave a source for it (Shabbos 62b). By all means ask your Rav about it.
“Does the Gemarah al Pi Hashem state the cosmetics issue as the reason, or was it the opinion of an Amora? There is a difference between saying Hashem said so, and a flesh and blood person THINKING it so.”
And if it’s just an Amora saying this you wouldn’t except it?
“Don’t you also think that if this is in fact true (and I take your word for it that it is in the Gemarah, just like the story of Kimchis, btw, which is not halacha), that with ALL the tznius things that girls are being taught in BY, that they might have wanted to impress this notion on the girls, as well, so as to prevent them from using excessive cosmetics and bringing about more tzoros upon us?”
I hardly think it’s a proof something doesn’t exist just because it isn’t taught it in BY.
“Amoraim and Tanaim disagree with each other all throughout the Gemarah.”
True. However, we have no reason to assume there is any disagreement here.October 6, 2010 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #699038
“Why would you point that out here? A thread by someone who obviously cares about halacha?”
I did not bring this up, Ben Torah did.
“But what happened here was not constructive at all. Bringing up the issue of the churban when we are trying to serve Hashem b’simcha, takes away our simcha shel mitzva, our joy in doing the right thing, even though it’s not easy to sleep on our back or do many of the things suggested, we do it in order to serve Hashem. Believe me, a woman who will not put on makeup on a three-day yom tov, is not wearing makeup just to look good – she’s wearing it because she needs it.”
“You just don’t see why what you’re doing is wrong, that you are claiming women are responsible for the churban, do you.”
I never “claimed women are responsible for the churban”, I was quoted a Gemora that says one of the reasons for the churban was that women were wearing too much cosmetics.
And no, I don’t see “why what I’m doing is wrong”.
“We do not claim that you are even though you are inappropriately criticizing a nonexistent event in a thread that was started to enable us to follow halacha.”
Huh? What “nonexistent event” am I “inappropriately criticizing”?
“Kabel et ha’emet mimi she’amro – work on your bain adam lachaveiro and don’t jump at every chance to blame others.”
1) I’m not the one who brought this up.
2) In my book, quoting a Gemora is hardly “jumping at every chance to blame others”.
“I don’t have a gemarakup and don’t know how to explain to you why what happened here showed a major problem in our society”
“major problem in our society”?! From quoting a Gemora?
“but please try to understand why so many girls who post here, are saying essentially the same thing and have the same feelings.”
I do understand that people are getting rather worked up here. However, I think this primarily due to some miscommunications that have come up. Therefore, I would like to clear up the following point:
Nobody is suggesting the Churban was the solely caused by women. That would be absurd. Women wearing too much cosmetics is only one of many reasons brought down by many other Gemoros (including sinas chinom, shelo borcha ba’Torah tichila, along with many others) for the Churban. Everybody is at fault here.
“Calling something apikorsus just emphasized this sense that you are ready to jump on anything to blame women”
Excuse me, I did not call anybody an Apikores. Talk about nonexistent events…
“We don’t believe that everything posted on the CR is true even if you wish we would.”
Neither do I. However, until I get a chance to look up this Gemora the only thing we know about it is what Ben Torah has told us.October 6, 2010 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #699039SacrilegeMember
I’m going to play mediator here.
I think maybe the reason most of the females where upset is because all they really wanted was tips for keeping on makeup for a 3 day Y”T. That being said maybe it wasnt the right place for you (mw13) to come in and quote that particular Gemara, as interesting as it was.
Filters people, filters.October 6, 2010 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #699040
“That being said maybe it wasnt the right place for you (mw13) to come in and quote that particular Gemara”
I didn’t quote this Gemora! Ben Torah did! Everybody take it up with him!October 6, 2010 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #699041SacrilegeMember
mw13 – LOL, ok well these women seem to be taking issue with what you are saying at this point in time.October 6, 2010 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #699042oomisParticipant
“You can argue back that woman caused the first sin”
Umm… actually… it was Adam Harishon’s fault for being untruthful in his instructions to Chava. By changing what Hashem actually commanded them to do, he was TOTALLY responsible for her being able to fall prey to the nachash.October 6, 2010 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #699043oomisParticipant
“(sorry mods – i just saw oomis’ post:
Oomis: Beautifully stated”
Thanks, I was starting to feel a distinct loss of self-esteem. 🙂October 6, 2010 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #699044myfriendMember
he was TOTALLY responsible
Really? Why then was woman punished with the pains of childbirth and subjection to her husband?October 7, 2010 12:23 am at 12:23 am #699045pascha bchochmaMember
I’m sorry mw13 for getting stressed out. I am going to wait to respond to this topic for a few days. Thank you for your patience.October 7, 2010 1:17 am at 1:17 am #699046SJSinNYCMember
Men are punished with toiling in the land.
And if we were really worried about maintaining the pain of childbirth we wouldnt allow epidurals.October 7, 2010 1:33 am at 1:33 am #699047pascha bchochmaMember
SJS: My mother likes to quote Rebbetzin Tzipporah Heller saying, “There may be a curse, but we don’t have to do our utmost to maximize the impact of the curse – we can try to minimize it.”October 7, 2010 1:34 am at 1:34 am #699048HelpfulMember
Sjs, you completely missed the point of the post you replied to.
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