January 17, 2017 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #619035
Is that it then? Is the entire purpose of learning then, of all of academia and the arts, just there to forge a path to whichever endless drudgery one will use to eke out a living?January 17, 2017 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1209467theprof1Participant
the original concept of a college education, liberal arts and sciences, was to give the individual a well rounded education as a member of a human society. it was not meant as a stepping point to a job or profession. that was in another educational setting, such as law school or medical school.January 17, 2017 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #1209468rebshidduchParticipant
There are plenty of art degrees that will make money.January 17, 2017 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #1209469LightbriteParticipant
I have never met any degree that made money.
On the other hand, I have met humans that made money and make money with a variety of degrees and even no degrees.
Each became a vessel in his or her own way.
Hashem imbued said humans with light and blessings.January 17, 2017 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #1209470
“Is that it then? Is the entire purpose of learning then, of all of academia and the arts, just there to forge a path to whichever endless drudgery one will use to eke out a living?”
The people running the colleges often have other agendas, usaully antiTorah ones.
From a Torah perspective, I believe the only heter (in general) to attend college would be if one feels it is necessary for hishtadlus for parnassah.
Of course, once one is attending college, he can find other uses for his knowledge, since all knowledge can be used for Avodas Hashem. But I don’t think that one would be allowed to put himself in an environment in which he is exposed to kefira and pritzus and secular knowledge not being taught from a Torah perspective unless he felt it were necessary for parnassah purposes. This includes online courses as well.January 17, 2017 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #1209471Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Yes. College is not Yeshiva. People would not pay hundreds of thousands just to study. You’re there for a degree, and you want a degree for jobs. Don’t listen to the idealists who say otherwise.January 18, 2017 12:15 am at 12:15 am #1209472baisyaakovliberalParticipant
Neville ChaimBerlin: idealist here 🙂 I want to go to college to get a good job eventually (which I admit is entirely possible without a degree) AND to learn subjects that I’m interested in. College does provide certain learning opportunities unavailable otherwise. One thing I want to do is study neuroscience and do research in labs.January 18, 2017 12:30 am at 12:30 am #1209473
Isn’t liberal arts just everything a free person is supposed to know, lumped together?January 18, 2017 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1209474mw13Participant
to learn subjects that I’m interested in
There are several other much cheaper ways to accomplish that, starting with your local public library.January 18, 2017 12:48 am at 12:48 am #1209475
mw13 – that is true for many things, but if she wants to learn neuroscience and do research in labs, she can’t do that in the library.January 18, 2017 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1209476baisyaakovliberalParticipant
“There are several other much cheaper ways to accomplish that, starting with your local public library.”
Yup, that’s what I’ve been doing since I could read. I read lots about things I want to study – neuroscience, politics, classic lit etc.
As awesome as books are, I can’t do hands on experiments and be involved in groundbreaking research. I also couldn’t ultimately work in certain fields without the degree.January 18, 2017 1:08 am at 1:08 am #1209477Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
There’s also a thing called auditing classes. You can sit and learn in college classes for free. You only have to pay if you want to be in a program towards getting a degree.January 18, 2017 1:46 am at 1:46 am #1209478CTLAWYERParticipant
I don’t agree with your premise that people only go to college to get a degree that can lead to a job.
Many seniors, my late parents included got additional college degrees after retirement in areas that interested them. They had absolutely no interest in returning to the workforce in their 80s. In Connecticut, for example, seniors attend the state university classes at no charge.
My father A”H got his BA from City College in NY back in 1938 and my Mother from Hunter in 1939…the only cost was the 50 cents per week for the subway…even the books were provided. My father got a MS and PhD in his late 80s. The study was for personal enrichment and the degree marked his proficiency. My mother got her MS, 6th Year and PhD in the 1960s and they were for professional advancement. She did however, complete a MS in Anthropology at age 91 and it was not for the purpose of employment (she had retired a quarter century earlier).January 18, 2017 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1209479MParticipant
1. There are program out there that offer degrees but little or no education. Such programs should be avoided. At some point, when employers realize that students with degrees from program X don’t know anything, and they will soon enough understand that this program provides little or no education, and they should hire students from elsewhere. Spending $10,000 and 2 years, for example, is not actually a bargain, but a waste of thousands of dollars and years of one’s life.
2. There are many college programs that offer excellent education to its students. Aside from the Columbias, Harvards, Princetons, etc (and there are dozens of universities in this league), there are also many excellent smaller programs such as Queens and Brooklyn college. When a student has a degree from a school like this in chemistry, for example, it means that this student has spent hundreds and hundreds of hours studying many very technical aspects of a particular subject, and has, ideally, a solid understanding of this subject. If you are an employer than needs a chemist, a degree such as this is highly valuable.
3. There are many jobs for which no particular education is necessary. A charismatic, motivated individual can sell TV’s or fix A/C units without understanding calculus or microeconomics, and without having ever read Shakespeare or Robert Frost.
4. Of course there is more knowledge out there than any one person can ever learn, and certainly not in four years. Good programs try to teach students basics of some of the most important topics, like philosophy and history, mathematics, science, social sciences, etc. It is a great luxury today that so many people in this country can afford to spend four years of their lives, right around when they have reached adulthood, and study many of these very deep and beautiful topics. But not all of us are as wealthy and fortunate. Many of us need to just get training to do a job, and get started working…January 18, 2017 6:37 am at 6:37 am #1209480WinnieThePoohParticipant
Today online programs may be a great way for a frum person to get a degree without being exposed to a college campus, the pritzus that comes with it, being influenced by liberal-minded professors with anti-Torah attitudes, and the antisemitism disguised as political correctness. Choosing coursework wisely can avoid kefira in the courses themselves. Besides degree programs, there are many courses offered online- for free even- that can really help someone acquire the practical skills they need for a job- such as computer programming courses and lots more. The proliferation of such courses over the last few years, given by respectable professors and professionals and sponsored by respectable universities, may mean that the college system as we know it may be undergoing major changes in the near future.January 18, 2017 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1209481misteryudiParticipant
WinnieThePooh: That is true only for certain industries, like technology. But for many others, one will always need in-person learning, studio time, and lab time, to acquire the necessary skills for a particular degree and career. You can’t replicate a classroom or lab experience with a virtual one.January 18, 2017 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1209482
WTP – It is definitely true that online courses can avoid many of the problems inherent in a regular college.
HOWEVER, one should not be misled into thinking that online courses are completely kosher and problem-free. They are a better option, but still not ideal. I am not against college when it is necessary, but one must think carefully before making such a decision and be aware of the dangers.January 18, 2017 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1209483WinnieThePoohParticipant
misteryudi- true at least in the current model. But if surgeons can do long-distant surgery via robots and computers, then you can imagine being able to do virtual labs etc at some future point.
Also, the fact is that online programs may start to be a real competition to the college campus (consider,for example, how much cheaper it is to offer classes online than to build/maintain classrooms and building) and to stay alive, campus colleges may have to re-invent themselves to provide a more practical, hands-on type of education.
Or maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part.January 18, 2017 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1209484
If this is how people think of college, does it apply only to college or to all learning?January 19, 2017 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1209485
“If this is how people think of college, does it apply only to college or to all learning?”
If what is how people think of college? that it’s only for parnassah purposes?
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